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Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alive in Christ, Apr 18, 2011.

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  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    I am not a Calvinist at present. There was a time when I was sort of leaning in that direction, but the testimony of the scriptures kept me from making the final plunge. I sometimes use the term "Cal-minion" in refering to my position, because there is some truth in Calvinism.

    I have had some interesting conversations with Calvinists lately, here on this board as well as away from the internet. One interaction got rather spicy when I mentioned my view..straight from the scriptures of course..that everyone who has ever lived recieves an invitation to to partake of eternal life, even if the gospel message never got to them in the normal way before they died. I believe these dear ones are not doomed, but rather will be given revelation from God, that they can discern, and will have opportunity to chose to receive eternal life, through faith alone..or to reject the offer.

    Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

    How can calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

    (and there are so, so many more.)


    I just cant bring myself to read these clear articulate passages of scripture, and then stop and say..

    Naw.

    They dont mean what they clearly say. God is speaking in *code* here. He clearly says THIS...but He REALLY means THAT.

    I just cant take that much liberty in interpration. The testimony of the scriptures is just so important. They are THE STANDARD that God has given us.


    AiC
     
    #1 Alive in Christ, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Read any Reformed Theologian and they deal with all this verses.

    What is your definition of propitiation.
     
    #2 Grasshopper, Apr 18, 2011
  3. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Never satisfactorally, in my view.

    I would say that this sums it up nicely...


    An atoning sacrifice that satisfies the wrath of God on behalf of those for whom it is made.

    Propitiation is required by God’s character, is initiated by God’s love, is defined by substitution, is accomplished by Christ’s death, and is appropriated by faith.
     
    #3 Alive in Christ, Apr 18, 2011
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    AIC ,

    Calvinists like all the verses in the bible. They just understand them in that they know that the scriptures cannot contradict themselves. Having a view of the bible that God deals with man based on His covenant does not lead to the other understandings that are offered....lets take a look at your supposed difficulties.

    Are all men going to be saved? Is thay what is being taught?Does the context suggest what men are meant by all?Does God want all men without exception to be saved?

    or what does verse1 and 2,and three say?
    The all men who they pray for, are kings and all that are in authority. That is the all the passage is speaking of.....all kinds of men in authority,,,so that believers can live a quiet and peaceable life. Do you see this AIC?

    next;
    great verse....first question;
    Is the whole world going to be saved? Or being that Jesus comes to the covenant nation Israel...does this indicate that salvation is soon to go worldwide[not Israel only]? The unbelieving world is already condemned;
    18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,
    next;
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Apr 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2011
  5. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Iconoclast...

    Actually, thats one of the problems with Calvinism. The contradictions.

    example: "God is a God of love, and He wants all to be saved...but has he already damned millons to hell, or..almost as bad...He allows them to live in places that He Himself know will be out of reach of the missionries for hundreds and hundreds of years!


    (this is going back to our previous conversations in the other thread of course)


    I dont believe that nonsense for 1 second. My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself.


    He will give them "light" that they can recieve or refuse, as the scriptures teach. I just cant believe that you are advocating the you and I are able to share gosple truth to someone...but Almighty God...(((CANT!))...when human witnesses are not capable of reaching them.

    Of course not. Some will choose to reject.

    Gods desire of course was "to the jews 1st, then the gentiles)

    Of course. The unbelievers, those who reject Christ.
    next;

    Agreed.

    All are not going to be saved. But not because God chooses certain "preferred ones", while condemning those He doesnt prefer.

    God *could* do that if He wanted to. But the scriptures make clear that He DOES NOT operate that way.

    When did I say "everyone". Please refrain from giving false witness. ONLY those who, through no fault of their own, never encountered a christian witness.

    Regarding my *actual* point, I just cant believe that you actually believe that God Almighty, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are impotent, and are unable to share the THE GOSPEL with people who cant be reached by human witnesses?!?!


    Iconoclast...


    Thats one of the problems with Calvinism. The contradictions.

    example: "God is a God of love, and He wants all to be saved...but has he already damned millons to hell, or..almost as bad...He allows then to live in places that He Himself know will be out of reach of the missionries for hundreds and hundreds of years!

    (this is going back to our previous conversations in the other thread of course)


    I dont believe that nonsense for 1 second. My God is powerfull, and all knowing, and if missionaries cant get somewhere, HE will evangelize them Himself. He will give them "light" that they can recieve or refuse, as the scriptures teach. I just cant believe that you are advocating the you and I are able to share gosple truth to someone...but Almighty God...(((CANT!))...when human witnesses are not capable of reaching them.

    Of course not. Some will choose to reject.

    Gods desire of course was "to the jews 1st, then the gentiles

    Of course. The unbelievers, those who reject Christ.
    next;

     
    #5 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You seem very sincere and I appreciate that.

    We say "all" all of the time when we do not actually mean "all".

    No we don't. We don't say "all" "ALL" of the time. Some times we don't say anything. Other times we say things besides "all"

    The whole WORLD does this.

    No it doesn't. The whole WORLD includes millions of people who NEVER speak at all. Many of them die before they can speak. Many of them are in comas and many of them are dumb and many of them are too young to speak at all.

    So we are all the time assuming that all means all and that is all that all means.

    No we are not. We are not ALL of the time assuming this. Most of the time we are not assuming ANYTHING. Much of the time that we are assuming some things we are most certainly NOT assuming this.

    The whole WORLD makes these assumptions. No it doesn't...

    Do you see my point?


    This is essential to you getting this.

    All almost NEVER means ALL in any book or in ANY context. It almost NEVER refers to each and every one. Almost NEVER.

    "Whole world" almost never EVER refers to every single person in the world.

    God speaks in his word using our language and he does it the same way we do it so that we can fully understand what he is saying.

    It is not deep thinking to conclude that "all" MUST mean every single person. Even in the Bible "all" rarely means every single person.

    If you are going to get the truth here on these things you are going to have to recognize that.
     
    #6 Luke2427, Apr 19, 2011
  7. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Luke...



    Hi, Luke.

    I understand the point you are making. And yes, words do have shades of meaning, and sometimes more that one usage.

    But we are talking about the scriptures here. And for literally thousands of years now translaters have painstakingly and meticulously bent over backwords to get "precisely" the right word for every "jot and tittle" of the scriptures.

    I personally am inclined to continue to trust that when I read the scriptures penned by God, I am going to believe every word of it as written.

    And I say this kindly, and respectfully....I'm not sure that the best way to defend a scriptural position is to is to imply that certain words in the scriptures just dont really mean anything! :laugh:

    I'M sure not going to go there!:rolleyes:

    (((Edit.))) I guess what I am saying is that I believe in the "plenary" interpretation of the scriptures. Meaning that EVERY WORD in the original is inspired. As opposed to just the general *ideas* are inspired.

    AiC
     
    #7 Alive in Christ, Apr 19, 2011
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  8. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    But it could equally be said:
    Anyway, here are several scriptures that I simply can not comprehend how non-Calvinists can manage to misunderstand, or explain away, or force ridiculous interpretations on to them.

    "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." (Joh 10:26)
    ​


    "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (Joh 6:44)

    But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) (Eph 2:4-5 )

    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

    ​
    How can non-calvinists miss the clear, easilly understood messages of these passages?....

    (and there are so, so many more.)
    ​
    Calvinists understand the passages you quoted differently to non-calvinists, and non-calvinists understand passages like those I quoted differently to calvinists. But, praise God! both believe that Jesus Christ and His completed work on Calvary's cross is the only way that sinners could be accepted by a perfectly holy God.
     
    #8 David Lamb, Apr 19, 2011
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Respectfully AIC you are forcing your meaning on those words which almost NEVER mean every single person.

    God chose the words "all" and "whole world" BECAUSE of the normal usage of those words. The normal usage of those words is most certainly NOT every single person.

    To say that God meant "every single person" when he said "all" or "whole word" is to force your view on the Word of God.

    The NATURAL reading of the text does NOT lend itself to every single person.

    You must FORCE that definition where it does not naturally go.

    God speaks OUR language in his word.

    "All" and "whole world" in NO language- Greek, Hebrew, English, etc...- usually means every single person in the world.

    Dozens of news reports said of the tsunami something to the effect of "The whole world is moved over this catastrophe."

    Whole world almost NEVER means every single person.

    It is not right for you to try to force it to mean that.

    Inspired scripture uses words AS WE USE THEM. Nothing about inspiration means that words are suddenly to be used in UNUSUAL ways.


    God bless.
     
    #9 Luke2427, Apr 19, 2011
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Trusrt in His Son

    1 Corinthians 7:12
    To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

    When men see world and all it is only what they see and know, when God say's all and world He is taking about all He sees and knows.

    Does that means He fails, not at all, because those who He wills will be saved those who trust in His Son.

    Paul learns to me how men in his day's was misunderstanding his words.

    So He does make it plain and simple.

    We are to make peace with everyone. Why, because God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Then he goes on to say that he is not lying. That tells me that people didn't believe him back then either.
     
    #10 psalms109:31, Apr 19, 2011
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  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    See, but the problem is that you say that God is all powerful and He wants all to be saved but they are not so that means that man is more powerful than God when it comes to salvation. Man's will trumps God's will. I do not see that in the Bible at all.
     
    #11 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Then if you were consistent you would be a universalist.

    John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."


    Gods wrath against the lost man has already been satisfied.
     
    #12 Grasshopper, Apr 19, 2011
  13. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Man is not more powerful than God ... but God does allow man the freedom of his free will to not accept him ... indeed God allows man to use his free will to reject him. This does not empower man not does it weaken God.
     
    #13 Crabtownboy, Apr 19, 2011
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    #14 Grasshopper, Apr 19, 2011
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  15. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But if God desires that all be saved, then His desire is not fulfulled, is it?
     
    #15 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Prove this from John's usage of the phrase "whole world" in all of his letters and tell us who "whole world" is in reference to if it is not all of sinful mankind.
     
    #16 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Mankind can NEVER appease God's wrath against sin even by spending the rest of eternity in Hell!! Your view leaves God eternally unpaid for a crime committed against Him.
     
    #17 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Where does desire = decree? If you are consistent and this is your view, He also doesn't desire sin...yet there is sin.
     
    #18 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    How is your view exempt? He wants no part of sin, yet sin exists, so that means man is more powerful than God when it comes to sin.

    You see the problem when we start plugging in our linear understanding into such a complex matter?
     
    #19 webdog, Apr 19, 2011
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    However, I see that God's desire that all be sin has to be trumped by something since not everyone is saved. So it's either that man's will is more important than God's will or else God has something even greater than his desire to see all men saved.

    So yes, something is more powerful than God's desire to see all men saved. The doctrine of grace says it's God, the doctrine of free will says it's man.
     
    #20 annsni, Apr 19, 2011
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