The Knowledge of God

In James the devils believe, but they do not "love the truth" therefore they do not "know" Him. That we all fall short of obeying Him is besides the point, and that God can not be known through carnal means means is also beside the point. In Love, God influences and in love for His truth, we (those of loving faith) freely respond. We are without excuse if we do not freely respond back in love. Obviously the devils "believe" He exists, they know Him, but they do not have the love in their hearts for His truth. I think the devils resent the Truth, they make excuses, and God knows their hearts.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

If by this statement you mean that man believes and it is credited to him as righteousness, then you may be accurate. But, if you mean that man's faith is a "work of the law," like circumcision, then you are wrong. Faith in the One who fulfilled the law isn't consider a work of the law, regardless of whether it is effectually produced in our hearts or not.

You can have faith that God exists and not be saved.

You can clearly see and know of his eternal attributes and divine nature and still "trade the truth in for a lie" and thus be lost.

I'm not sure why you have taken issue with this.

 

Who is "God"?
What is the object of your faith?
The object of my faith is the Lord Jesus Christ and his atoning work on the cross and therefore I am saved.

The object of much of my family's belief is Christ as presented by the RCC and their baptism. Therefore they are not saved.

What is the object of your faith?

 

This from someone who chose (or did he?) their first name as their screen name...that was hilarious! :laugh:

 

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.



Jesus told the Pharisees they would have had no sin if they were blind, but now that they see, they have sin remaining in them.



John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.



It shows what here that we are held accountable for what we know, and not necesarily what we don't know. Jesus did the works He did in front of these Pharisees to show them who He really was, the Son of God. It was as a witness against them because they failed to believe in the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

The issue is not about carnal means- it is about carnal minds.

The carnal mind, which is ALL the unregenerate sinner has because he is dead spiritually, CANNOT be subject to the law of God, it CANNOT know God because God is spiritually discerned.

This is why the spirit of man must be regenerated before the man can KNOW God.

And since you cannot trust someone you do not know then until one is regenerated he cannot be saved since salvation comes by grace through faith.

So here are the stages:
Man is lost.
Man is regenerated.
Man comes to know God.
Man trusts God.
Man is saved.

 

It is that you believe that Jesus is LORD that qualifies your faith as genuine.

 

Uh, Brother Luke, you have this sequence all wrong. One can not have the "new birth", and not be saved, and vice versa.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

One doesn't get the "new birth" and then get saved later down the road. Jesus states that without anyone eating His flesh and drinking His blood, they have no life in them.

 

These verses do not support what you are saying. Could you please explain how you think they do?

I John 5:1 says, "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God..."

Compare that to John's language in 2:29 and 4:7 and you will very easily see that John is saying the new birth PRECEDES faith.

But this is not the first time John has said this.

In John 3 John records Jesus explaining to Nicodemus that he must be born again before he can see the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God there, as in almost every other place in Scripture, is not talking about Heaven in particular.

It is talking about the sphere of God's recognized rule. The Kingdom is where saved people dwell.

BEFORE you can see it or enter it you must be born from above.

This is because the natural man CANNOT receive the things of God.

He must be born a spiritual man before he can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

Okay, Brother, you and I have been around this merry-go-round before on this very subject, but here I go again.

Let's look at the word used for "regeneration": παλιγγενεσία paliggenesia G3824

Thayer's definition:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death.


Now, one can not have a new life consecrated to God and not be born again/born from above. If this were the case, Jesus would have told Nicodemus "ye must be "born again", born again. Salvation doesn't come in installments, but in one lump sum. When a sinner humbles themself under His mighty hand, cries from the depths of a broken heart, and believes in Him, he/she is then saved.

When God begins drawing someone, they are still unsaved. They are unsaved until they get the blood applied to their soul, and then, and only then, are they born again/born from above. Jesus stated that without His flesh and His blood, you have no life in you. I'll take what Jesus says.

 

Yes and you still have not thought it through nor do you understand the position that regeneration precedes faith.

The Spirit of God is who consecrates a life to God initially. This is done through the sanctification of the Spirit.

I Peter 1:2 gives you the process:
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

1st- Election in eternity past.
2nd- sanctification of the Spirit. This is the first step in time toward your salvation. This is where regeneration takes place.
3rd- obedience. Here Peter is speaking about obeying the Gospel. He uses this same language again in chapter 4.
4th- the sprinkling of the blood of Christ- this is where our salvation is complete in time.

You also ignored the other verses that unambiguously and absolutely prove that the new birth precedes faith and salvation.

The problem, Willis, is that you have heard that the New Birth is the exact same thing as salvation your whole life so you believe it. The fact is that the new birth is the first step in one's salvation.

No. This is wrong and unbiblical as I have clearly proven.

 

Excuse me....I was under the impression you were under the teaching of Old School Baptists. What church of that practice would support your theology? And why your point of departure.

 

This is very correct, great point:thumbs:

 

The word regeneration only occurs once in the Bible, in Titus 3:5. The verse says:

“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:4-5, ESV)

As this is the only Biblical usage of the word, any theory which puts regeneration before salvation, and thus, before faith (which is the condition of salvation), is operating from an un-Biblical definition. Titus makes it perfectly clear, and Spurgeon got it right: salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, and a man, being regenerated, is saved already.

As salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, the Calvinist will have to show from the Scriptures where anyone is said to have been regenerated/born again before they exercised repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. What saith the Scriptures? Does regeneration precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration?

“And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.’” (Mark 16:15-16, ESV)

“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12, ESV)

“[T]hat whoever believes in him may have eternal life. ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.’” (John 3:15-16, ESV)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36, ESV)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24, ESV)

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40, ESV)

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51, ESV)

“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day … As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.’” (John 6:53-54, 57, ESV)

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.’” (John 11:25, ESV)

“ut these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV)

“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:38-39, ESV)

“And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (Acts 16:31, ESV)

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16, ESV)

“ecause, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” (Romans 10:9-10, ESV)

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.” (1 Cor. 1:21, ESV)

“And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Heb. 11:6, ESV)

In each of these cases, faith clearly precedes salvation/regeneration/the new life in Christ. But as being regenerated or born again involves the reception of the Holy Spirit, the question must be asked: Does the Holy Spirit quicken the spiritually dead before or after they believe? Again, the Scriptures are clear:

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:38-39, ESV)

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:38, ESV)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us–for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’– so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.” (Gal. 3:13-14, ESV)

“And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Gal. 4:6, ESV)

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14, ESV)

As these Scriptures make perfectly clear, receiving the Holy Spirit comes after belief.

 

There are two sides of ORBs Bro. EW&F. I am in the side that holds to FW. The Sovereign Grace Assoc., Bethel Assoc. and Original Mountain Liberty Assoc. are three that are on the other side. There could be a few more, but these are the only ones I know that are on the other side of this debate.

 

To borrow your "line": :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: