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The practicality of theological views...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Nov 7, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    In another thread Luke made these comments:
    Luke, I'm not pointing out these points to be contentious, but I honestly want to understand how a consistent Calvinist believes that those who post in ignorance may have "eternal consequences," "endanger the souls of men," and be "extremely dangerous?"

    Is not the sovereign plan of God being fulfilled to not only save all He has appointed to salvation, but also every detail and intention of man? In other words, what is happening here that (1) God hasn't ordained to occur and (2) that could possibly negatively effect the eternal soul of any individual?

    I ask this because you appear to be suggesting that someone's error on this forum could somehow affect whether or not someone goes to heaven or hell. It that what you are saying? If not, what do these quotes mean?

    ...I understand the idea of end/means in regard to the need for evangelism within the Calvinistic system, but here we are talking about the potential of false teaching affecting the souls of man and eternity. How does that apply in this case?

    Are you saying God may ordain the means of me typing an error on this forum to condemn an individual to an eternal hell?

    I'm a practical theologian as my degree was in 'applied theology,' so forgive me for trying to see how theoretical concepts actually play out in the real world. Please expound. Thanks
     
    #1 Skandelon, Nov 7, 2011
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Certainly. There is nothing that ever happens that has not been ordained by God.

    But I am as oblivious as you are as to how all of that works.

    What I know, which I suspect is all we are supposed to know on this matter this side of eternity, is that we creatures make real decisions which bear real consequences of which we are fully held accountable to God.

    That is all I know, because to the best of my current experience and study, that is all God has revealed to us about his Sovereignty as to how it relates to our responsibility.
     
    #2 Luke2427, Nov 7, 2011
  3. seekingthetruth

    seekingthetruth New Member

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    Wait a second, you are saying that God ordains everything that happens before it happens, which in essence makes it His will.

    So, when I commit an awful sin, I did it because it was God's will for me to do it and He even ordained that I should do it.

    But then you say he is going to hold me accountable and bear consequences?

    That's like me telling my 6 year old to hit the little girl next door with a rock, and then punishing him for doing it.

    John
     
    #3 seekingthetruth, Nov 7, 2011
  4. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Yes, every post of mine on this forum has been ordained by God. So, please stop worrying yourself sick on whether I am educated enough to post here. It's God's will that I post here.
     
    #4 matt wade, Nov 7, 2011
  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes but you are responsible for what you do and I am responsible for whether or not I resist you when you do what you do on here.
     
    #5 Luke2427, Nov 7, 2011
  6. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am a robot programmed by God who will be punished for the programming I never asked for. What supreme justice.
     
    #6 matt wade, Nov 7, 2011
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    .........................
     
    #7 Iconoclast, Nov 7, 2011
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Iconoclast,
    Creeds and confessions are just as fallible as the sinners that wrote them.
     
    #8 DHK, Nov 8, 2011
  9. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    Since what we post here is ordained of God, according to Luke2427, does that mean that when he resists our posting, he is resisting God Himself? :laugh:
     
    #9 Robert Snow, Nov 8, 2011
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, let me restate what you are agreeing to. God ordained for some here to write in ignorance thus leading some astray to an eternal hell?

    This is why you say that some's behavior here is "dangerous" and can affect the eternal souls of man, right?

    And yet you speak about it as if you are so certain.

    You do realize that MOST human beings would NEVER consider your version of "real choice" as being a real choice, right? The only one making choices in your system is God, we are merely carrying out what He has chosen to happen.

    If this is true, then may I suggest you stop teaching things like...

    "Satan did it- but so did God." - Luke
    ("it" was in reference to 'evil')

    "The Scripture is clear. God is DOING these things. But God is not evil in doing them because his motive is pure and right."
    -Luke

    "God willed the most horrible sin of all time"- Luke

    "God willed for evil" -Luke

    When I interjected to clarify, I asked if you really meant God permitted or allowed evil. And you replied saying...

    "The word "allow" and the IDEA of allowance is not in the text ANYWHERE." -Luke

    "God does not just allow these things" -Luke

    So, apparently you don't know HOW God ordains evil, but YOU DO KNOW He does it and doesn't merely allow it.... interesting...
     
    #10 Skandelon, Nov 8, 2011
  11. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    bingo!!!!!!!
     
    #11 convicted1, Nov 8, 2011
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Phillippians 4:13:


    If we take this too far, we can rape, murder, molest, rob, steal, do drugs, fornicate, lie, beat people up, and do this THROUGH Christ, and it strengthens us.
     
    #12 convicted1, Nov 8, 2011
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    '"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways" Says the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"' (Isaiah 55:8-9).
    'Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out' (Rom 11:33).

    That God has ordained all things that come to pass is a blessed and wonderful truth. If it is not so, then He is not all-powerful. Perhaps instead of God ordaining you to write nonsense on the BB, He is looking down and saying, "Oh no! Skandelon's writing nonsense again, and I'm just....not...powerful....enough to stop him!." That's not the God I worship.

    If I am diagnosed with terminal cancer next week, I think I could accept it if I know that it comes from the hand of an almighty, loving God; but if God was thinking to Himself, "Oh how I wish Steve didn't have to get cancer, but I can't prevent it" what sort of God is that? Maybe He'll think to Himself, "Oh how I wish I could get Steve into heaven, but it's just too hard for Me! His sins are too many for Me to forgive and Satan is just too strong!"

    Why does God allow things that He could stop? I don't know, but maybe He allows you to write all the tripe you do to show His great mercy. "Welcome to heaven, Skan. All the nonsense you wrote on the B.B. is forgiven you for the sake of My Son whom you trusted for salvation; and by My almighty power, I ensured that it didn't prevent any of my elect from coming here too." Ah! Happy endings! Don't you love 'em?" :godisgood:

    Steve
     
    #13 Martin Marprelate, Nov 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2011
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    So the God you serve decrees people write nonsense about Him? Praise God that's not the God I serve.
    Nobody here is advocating open theism so you can stop with the nonsense.
    Is it allowed...or ordained as you said above?
     
    #14 webdog, Nov 8, 2011
  15. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Unfortunately DHK used a broad brush and generalizations to dismiss this, without addressing reason, Scriptures nor giving a sound rebuttal against these statements specifically.
     
    #15 preacher4truth, Nov 8, 2011
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Would say it is impossible to do such Through Christ.
     
    #16 ituttut, Nov 8, 2011
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    :applause:

    I still don't know how some interpret God's ability to stop sin with His determination of it. I guess since I knew my children would sin before deciding to have children means I determined them to sin?
     
    #17 Skandelon, Nov 8, 2011
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    But according to your earlier implications regarding cancer coming by the hand of God, doesn't it reason that my so-called "tripe" also comes from His hand? You see, you have yet to acknowledge the distinction of God's active decretive will and his permissive will. You appear to see them all as one in the same.
     
    #18 Skandelon, Nov 10, 2011
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    What if you ordain for your to kid to make decisions yet you tell him it is against your will for him to hit the girl next door with a rock.
     
    #19 percho, Nov 10, 2011
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You mean free will?
     
    #20 webdog, Nov 10, 2011
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