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Predestination

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011.

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  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Let us look at what is taught in the Bible about predestination. The Scofield Study Bible says that "Predestine means to 'mark out' or 'determine beforehand' " (Note at Ephesians 1:11).

    Now let us look at the following verse where the word "predestinate" is used:

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"     (Ro.8:29).

    Romans 8:29 is not saying that some people are predestined to be saved but instead that it is determined beforehand that those who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of the Son":

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"     (Ro.8:29).

    It was determined beforehand that those of this dispensation who are already saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son" when they meet Him in the air and put on a glorious body just like His glorious body:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body"     (Phil.3:20-21; NIV).

    The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

    "Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"     (Eph.1:5; NKJV).

    That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

    "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"     (Ro.8:23).

    The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

    "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"     (Eph.1:11).

    Just two verses later we learn more about this inheritance" to which the saved of this present dispensation have been ordained:

    "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"     (Eph.1:13-14).

    The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

    "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body"     (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).

    So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.
     
    #1 Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    It sure is about salvation. In fact predestination is an Gospel Truth, along with being chosen in Christ before the foundation ! Eph 1:3-11 are Gospel Truth's that will be believed by anyone God reveals the Gospel to !
     
    #2 savedbymercy, Dec 7, 2011
  3. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You are sure but you present no evidence from the Bible to support your view.

    In regard to being chosen by God before the foundation of the world we an see exactly how He God choses:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

    No one is chosen for salvation until they believe the truth of the gospel.
     
    #3 Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011
  4. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

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    The idea that one could never lose salvation would have been unimaginable to the early Christians and their writings attest to it, since it was evident from the Bible that baptism saves, that the baptized can deny Christ, and that those who deny Christ will not be saved unless they repent, as did Peter.
     
    #4 lakeside, Dec 7, 2011
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    What do you think Eph 1:3-11 is the newspaper ?
     
    #5 savedbymercy, Dec 7, 2011
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Do you always talk in riddles!
     
    #6 Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011
  7. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Scofield was Supralapsarianist. Which is problematic.
     
    #7 Thinkingstuff, Dec 7, 2011
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    What do you mean? Eph 1:3-11 is the Gospel summary they believed vs12- 13 !
     
    #8 savedbymercy, Dec 7, 2011
  9. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Since when does anyone call the Scriptures a "newspaper"?
     
    #9 Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011
  10. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    So the definition I gave out of the Scofield Study Bible is in error in regard to the meaning of the Greek word translated "predestinate"?

    Please give me the correct meaning.

    Thanks!
     
    #10 Jerry Shugart, Dec 7, 2011
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Well hello my friend! Been a while (what are your beer recommendations for the Holidays) ? :love2:

    Back to bidness.....Why would Scofield's being a Supralaparianist be problematic.....would you consider him a fatalist? Ive not studied the man sooo......
     
    #11 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 7, 2011
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Let that go ! You need to deal with the fact of Eph 1:3-11 being the Gospel, part of it !
     
    #12 savedbymercy, Dec 7, 2011
  13. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    I have already dealt with Ephesians 1:5, 13-14:

    The following verse is also speaking of the destiny of those who are already saved:

    "Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"     (Eph.1:5; NKJV).

    That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

    "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body"     (Ro.8:23).

    The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

    "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"     (Eph.1:11).

    Just two verses later we learn more about this inheritance" to which the saved of this present dispensation have been ordained:

    "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession"     (Eph.1:13-14).

    The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

    "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body"     (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).

    So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.
     
    #13 Jerry Shugart, Dec 8, 2011
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The part of the verse you did not make bold shoots your interpretation in the foot?
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Dec 8, 2011
  15. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    "Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5; NKJV).

    It is according to the good pleasure of God's will that He fore-ordained that all who are saved will be adopted as sons and that refers to the redemption of our body.

    "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).
     
    #15 Jerry Shugart, Dec 8, 2011
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Quite true! But God's "purpose" (Rom. 8:28) precedes "foreknowledge" (Rom. 8:29) and "foreknowledge" precedes "predestined" (Rom. 8:29).

    Just like a blue print (God's plan/purpose) precedes knowledge (thus foreknowlege of the blueprint) of the arrangement of rooms and how the house will be built, which in turn "predetermines" the house being built "according to the good pleasure of his will" (purpose).
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Dec 8, 2011
  17. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Here we see what how God determines who will be chosen for salvation:

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

    No one is chosen for salvation until they believe the truth of the gospel. Now let us look at another verse that teaches the same thing:

    "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

    One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge.

    Those who are fore-ordained to put on new, glorious bodies just like the Lord Jesus' body are those who are chosen for salvation because they believe the gospel.
     
    #17 Jerry Shugart, Dec 8, 2011
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Your overlooking very important aspects of this verse. Paul says they were chosen "TO" salvation! The phrase that follows simply qualifies how that salvation would be accomplished. It would be accomplished "THROUGH" setting apart by the Holy Spirit in regeneration in connection with the belief of the truth. Note the order, election to salvation first. setting apart by the Holy Spirit second. Beleif of the truth last!

    Romans 8:28-30 gives the full logical order. Foreknowledge follows rather than precedes God's purpose of salvation (Rom. 8:28 "according to God's Purpose"). Purpose prior to foreknowledge (Rom. 8:29). God foreknows according to HIS PURPOSE or the good pleasure of His will!. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God's purpose. Election in God's purpose is "TO" salvation (2 Thes. 2:13) and for the purpose that the elect "should be holy" (Eph. 1:4) not because they were foreseen to be holy or foreseen to be saved or foreseen they should believe (Acts 13:48).
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Dec 9, 2011
  19. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    I cant tell. Because Eph 1:4-11 are Gospel Truthes Paul Preached and predestination is right there !

    Peter preached it also Acts 2:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

    Now Paul stated in Eph 1:5-6

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    This is the Gospel of God's Grace he said he preached in Acts 20:24

    24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
     
    #19 savedbymercy, Dec 9, 2011
  20. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Brother Jerry, I posted this in another thread in another forum here, and let me know what you think, okay?

     
    #20 convicted1, Dec 9, 2011
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