Need some advice and prayers

If I were you I would call my pastor and ask if he might come over and discuss this issue with you and your wife.

 

I see.

The foundational Calvinist points that I listed all vitally hinge on determinism and there is no way of getting around that truth while holding to those points.

I basically told him to honestly search his heart for the truth and consider what he would tell his children concerning this doctrine so often called "the gospel" and set an example of why his wife might be so opposed to such a view. Hopefully facing the truth is helpful to his dilemma and I don’t believe sugar coating it or reinforcing his arguments against his wife's as in his best interests.

Thank you, understood and apology accepted.

I really had no major objections to your other points and thought you made some good ones. (although, likewise I would have worded some of it differently)

On that issue I will tell you that "some" Calvinist will turn to a compatibilist view to accept both these truths but the same will typically put you choosing God as a second cause and proclaim a view of divine sovereign determinism as the first cause; this voids any possibility of true creaturely volition as the will of the creature only comes into play after he has been determined to make the choice; therefore it still hinges on determinism and not the free will of the creature to choose.

Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.

 

AshlysDad...

My advice to you would be to heed what your wife is suggesting.

She is displaying good wisdom. Listen to her.

 

Benjamin...

In my experience, I have come to believe that with most calvinists, (thankfully not all) doing what you suggest is an impossibility for them. In my dealings with calvinists its almost like they have somehow become completely unable to consider any view different from there view to be possibly valid. 100% closed minded.

What a sad place to be.

 

Dear Brethren,
You have a great opportunity to grow and study together as husband and wife....growing in the grace and knowledge of our Great Lord and Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is no need to "shrink back" or hide , or conceal any divinely revealed truth. You can agree on many passages out right. Some need more careful study.....
You can just read the clear language of Jn 6, Jn 10, romans 8 eph 1
ezk 34 Jn 17......it speaks of God's great mercy to sinners In Christ
Paul and the other apostles spoke openly and plainly about these things and so can we.
keep studying and in time this will strtengthen your marraige and christian walk.....enjoy the process....find the best objections to the teaching and you will quickly see they are empty .....emotional and carnal...
Read Jn 17 ....over and over.......it is right there:thumbs:
Trust the Spirit of God to reveal His truth as he has promised to!

 

AIC.....isn't that what got Adam in trouble? following advise that was against God's word!

 

It Hinges on....But God....

Man has self will...not free will...he is the willing bondslave to sin...But God...

 

Originally Posted by ashleysdad
"As the title says I am in need of alot of prayers and some advice. When I first came to the BB I was completely against Calvinism or DOG. I considered it heresy and denied it vehemently. In the time I have been here I have read the vast majority of the threads regarding the debate between C/A, and though I post little I do follow them intently. At first it was to try to learn different arguments against the Calvinist position, but about 6 months ago I started to see things in a different light. Now, though I admit there are many things I do not understand and I cannot always adequately explain what I think, I believe that the position commonly referred to as "Calvinism" to be the more correct view. Still studying and still praying but coming more and more to that conclusion. Here is my problem. My wife is ardently opposed to this view and sees it as "unfair" and not right. Which is exactly where I was before. Ther problem is that it is starting to cause some turmoil in my family. I have been able to avoid a direct confrontation until last night. One of my kids asked me a question concerning how God saves people and when I started to answer a small war broke out. This is not what I want in my family. At the same time I don't want to teach something that I no longer believe to be true. Again I freely admit that I am new to this and as a result still struggle with adequate explanations which probably escalated the problem. Any advice and especially prayers will be appreciated. Thanks"

Go to your place of prayer alone. Ask God to reveal what Calvinism really is. If you seek, He will answer. Read about the man John Calvin. Then turn back and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Word of advice for you Brother on what I bolded. I am the same way when I "learn" something new. Quite a few times, in my zeal to show what I learned, others have pointed out my errors. I am not saying you are wrong whenever you "learn" something new, but don't jump the gun too quick. Lord knows I have, and ended up with egg all over my face.


BTW, you and your wife need to be engaged in earnest God-face seeking prayer, and He will lead you in the right way, guarantee.

 

No.

Eve was in error. This brothers wife is not.

 

There is so much confusion here about what the doctrines of grace teach. I would encourage everyone to get the book Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer. It will clear up a lot of confusion about what so-called "Calvinism" is and what it is not.

I am praying for you to have wisdom as you work through this process with your wife, Ashelysdad. And again I strongly encourage you to get the book.

 

AD

Remember ,it has taken time for you to work through the scriptures for God to allow you to see what you see now. your wife has probably not had as much time to work through the scriptures...so be patient as we are told here;

The truth has been in the scriptures the whole time...there are many who try like the fowls of the air to take away the seeds of God's truth.....mt13;

Any believer who seeks the truth will find it , as it is God given. In our day there is much resistance and false ideas that try to choke the word...but you can trust that god who has began a good work in you....will perform it, until the day of Christ

 

ALL calvinism is, at least from the aspect of the Sotierology of it, is a system to try to put together in a coherent fashion what the biblical passages are throughout the Bible regarding God dealings with saving man!

IF you take the time to examine what the Bible teaches as say per the Doctrines of grace/TULIP, would find that the major objections to them would NOT be based upon biblical grounds, but more in philosophical grounds, as it usually comes down to saying that God gets portrayed by Cals as being "unfair/creating robots/puppet master", basically, just not fair that God Elects to save some, and not All!

And we do not worship Calvin, nor see him as being the 13th Apostle!
Gifted teacher, but NOT infallible, that is why we have to use the Apostles that WERE infallible while recording their theologies from the Lord!

 

There is no reason why you cannot be agreeable with the DoG and with the other thinking(s) as you continue to allow the Holy Spirit to bring you discernment and wisdom. You may be in "agreement of strength" in an argument or persuasion toward one over another, but continue in growth.

As your journey has just begun, it won't be complete for many years. Do not fear being flexible and tolerant. No matter what you determine to be more in line with Scriptures, as long as you hold firmly: That it is Christ alone that saves, That Christ is the ultimate authority, That Christ is the one who all must be answerable - to whom all will bow, That Christ came, is, and will come in the flesh, and, That under the leadership of the Holy Spirit you continue in wisdom and understanding, then application of labels will become less important in favor of actually being able to discern from what view a person is taking in visiting Scriptural principle(s).



That is as the Scriptures would have you do - sift everything spoken and done through the Scriptures holding on to what is in agreement as gold and trashing the rest.


There is sin in all camps.

There are those who are "puffed up" in all camps.

There are those who would break the love of Christ for the brethren and call for separation and exclusion in all camps.

There are those who would deny education, membership, or even continued employment over a label in all camps.

There are those who can get past all that, and will accept the frailty of the labels and embrace the truth of Scriptures and the love of the brethren in all camps.

I would give, along with what I stated, this warning.

Keep the focus upon these things in this order:

The personal, open, honest, and reliable relationship between you and God through the Lord Christ Jesus as growth/learning is acquired by the Word through Holy Spirit. Do not rely upon a label.

The personal, open, honest, and reliable relationship between you and the wife that God has given you, and the children will by example of those displayed characters see that what you teach and live is not filled with hypocrisy. Do not rely upon a ring.

Then as much as is in you, "love the brethren," but never let they and those either from outside or inside the assembly come between you and your wife. Do not rely upon title, level of scholarship, or group name.

 

I've been reading this thread with intrest as in the past year I've come to embrace the Doctrines of Grace myself. I've bolded a section of your post and I think your going through what they call "cage stage", there may be some threads here about it, or you can search Puritan Board as well. Seems to be common, and I feel like I've gone through it some myself.

I've not really talked to my wife about my stance on the issue, we are in a biblically sound SBC church with a Reformed pastor, and that is my greatest concern that she is hearing sound preaching. Of course I have a responsiblity as head of household to be the husband/man God has called me to be.

I have been wanting to discuss this issue with my brother and father, even share some Spurgeon I've read. I've decided though just to not discuss it unless they bring it up, as I'm a bit of a black sheep as it is being Baptist, when the rest of my family are members of another denomination. I'm just thankful that they truly know the Lord and walk humbly seeking to serve him.

 

I read your posts sometimes and think that you might have an agenda for being here? From reading your posts in this now closed thread, either you've come to a conclusion pretty quickly about Calvin, or your just being facetious.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75421

 

Just beware of false doctrines:

(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

This is the message of the Gospel we are to preach:

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Yet, some attempt to preach the Gospel message, the Word, the Light that God put into the world is full of darkness and despair for those poor non-preselected creatures who must remain ignorant and not have the real ability to know the truth of God’s love and are without hope to ever receive the promise.

But Jesus/the Light/the Word delivers the promise of the “Good News” differently than those who would take joy and pride in broadcasting their perceived intellectualism through using dark systematic principles designed to explain to the seeker that they may not have been “pre-selected. (There have even been examples here on this board of some who would quickly be in the face of someone he were witnessing to if that person would scoff at his message and would in spite quickly turn the message into lie and proclaim to that person, that “scoffer” who would dare speak back to him, that they may not be one of the pre-selected few.) That person knows who he is. Beware of that those who would tell the lies of the devil and proclaim to others that they may have no ability to see the light, or even the ability to respond to the true and genuine promise God gave to all His creatures.

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Don’t walk in the vanity of those who would get so wrapped up into a man-made doctrine that they can not see the truth of God’s loving Nature, His genuine promise being to all His creatures, and would think of themselves as having to be “specially” pre-selected and determined to believe rather than having the God given volition to receive faith because of love of the truth; those who say God’s light is full of darkness for others.

(Eph 4:17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
(Eph 4:18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

(Eph 4:27) Neither give place to the devil.
(Eph 4:28) Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
(Eph 4:29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
(Eph 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Don’t buy into a theological system where you can plainly and truthfully see that many strive to twist the truth of God’s genuine loving promise to all His creatures into “something else” that is full of darkness.

 

Are you buying into being Robb Bell, in that all should get saved by God, that he needs to be fair and equally save all people, anything else is "unlike God?"