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Featured Anti-Calvinism Scriptural Food-Fight (By Popular Request)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012.

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  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Some here continually attempt to argue that no scripture refutes the Calvinist/Determinist position. These same people typically refuse to reason rationally and/or engage in ethical debate and resort to calling philosophical argumentation over the interpretation of scriptures, ‘carnal reasoning” while Ad nauseam falling back on the claim that, “Non-Calvinist do not offer scriptures, they can’t, they can’t even to begin to”.

    Obviously, the opposition knows the ones doing this enjoy nothing more than going in circles with simpleminded scriptural food-fights and are avoiding using the science of logical reasoning (philosophy) which is designed to draw out the truth in a matter concerning premises, claims and issues. Hence: We know they are trying to support their arguments through “circular reasoning fallacy”. Since critical thinking skills involving logical reasoning has no value to them I suggest the least I could do for those who under the delusion that we can’t offer scriptures and wish to forego rational reasoning in debate is to give them an example of what they say doesn’t exist.

    It is said, seeing is believing, a picture is worth is worth a thousand words, and in this case a demonstration of the scriptures they say don’t exist might have some value in providing a reference to those who seem to continually forget they exist. So let’s humor them:

    Here is your chance to offer scriptures to the Calvinists/Determinists and edify them in the truth that they exist.

    Feel free to donate a few scriptures to the Calvinists/Determinists, but please keep to the protocol:

    1) Offer Scripture

    2) Offer a BRIEF explanation of how these scriptures refute their..ah, shall I dare say…address their ”reasoning” that their determinist' system is Biblical and dealing with their claims that “no scripture exists” while trying to overlook any argument they give by adhering to their own rules that “No correction is welcome” .

    3) Remember keep the “carnal philosophical reasoning” to a minimum, this is merely an opportunity for a simple old fashion, good ole boy, Biblical food fight to see whether or not it is true that any scriptural support exists which refutes the Determinist System.

    4) Remember, abide by their rules: No “carnal philosophical reasoning” about the scriptures after they and a "brief" explanation are presented.

    This is the "debate" they have been asking for:
     
    #1 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2012
  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I’ll start:

    1) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    (1Co 15:22)

    2) “All” means “all”, the definition of “all” does not change within one sentence. In Adam all, even the righteous, die, and in Christ all these shall be made alive - It does not say, "shall revive”, but shall be made alive, by a power not their own.

    3) Therefore, the power of Gospel is genuinely offered to “all”. This verse biblically refutes the L of the Determinist’ system.
     
    #2 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    can we agree to do all of this in the Spirit of jesus, and NOT in that of the flesh, trying to squash the other side?
     
    #3 Yeshua1, Jun 29, 2012
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    What? Are you afraid of getting squashed? You know you will. You know very well there is a massive amount of scripture that refutes Calvinism. I will be glad to participate.

    I am busy tonight, but I will start with this;

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    This verse proves no man has life until he first believes. This refutes the false view of Calvinism that regeneration precedes faith.

    More later. MUCH more.
     
    #4 Winman, Jun 29, 2012
  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    STOP!

    Please stay on topic and do not bring personal conflicts into this tread.
     
    #5 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    What a farce. :rolleyes:
     
    #6 Amy.G, Jun 29, 2012
  7. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Agreed Amy.
     
    #7 preacher4truth, Jun 29, 2012
  8. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Please try to ignore any Calvinist attempts to avoid the premise and turn this into personal slugfest. Stick to the topic of providing the Determinists scriptures which refute their system so they can no longer make the claim they don't exist.

    1) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
    (Isa 1:18-20)

    2) Demonstrates free will and ability to respond to God’ s reasoning.

    3) Refutes total inability/depravity.
     
    #8 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are already shuffling your feet. If all means ALL then according to 1 Corinthians 15:22 ALL Shall Be Saved. Is that true? Are ALL Saved?

    Then in point number 3 we see a little SEmantic Hoocuus-Poocuus. You say that the passage does not mean that ALL shall be made alive it means whatever you want it to mean! So much for keeping “carnal philosophical reasoning” to a minimum!
     
    #9 OldRegular, Jun 29, 2012
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You be nice Amy G.:godisgood::love2::thumbs:
     
    #10 OldRegular, Jun 29, 2012
  11. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    If you are going to be consistent, then....

    You said, " “All” means “all”, the definition of “all” does not change within one sentence."

    So then all would be made alive. Not some, but all since all "does not change within one sentence."

    You said...

    "In Adam all, even the righteous, die, and in Christ all these shall be made alive "

    Those in adam(every person that has ever lived) die and in Christ(every person that is "in Christ" or saved) shall be made alive.

    I would agree that salvation is offered to all. The Bible says that everyone that believes will be saved. However, I can't see how this at all refutes limited atonement at all. This passage also has nothing to do with salvation being offered to all.

    This passages teaches that all in Adam die and all in Christ alive.
     
    #11 jbh28, Jun 29, 2012
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Well Benjamin....Thank you for stepping up:applause:

    yes it does.....let us see what it means in this verse.

    all still means all....okay..lets proceed!

    The text of scripture simply says all...it does not comment on either the righteous, or unrighteous...it says:
    For as in Adam all die

    This speaks of all created men and women.....all die.They are in the realm of death....needing to be saved. This applies to all who are conceived in this world by natural means.....All men and women in Adam die.
    They are all here and ALL in Adam....by physical birth

    Well..no..not at all!
    what is wrong with this statement? the words all these are inserted into the text....the text says:
    even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    (1Co 15:22)
    That makes a big difference in this way....

    all still means all
    and yet...we have a second group of all....
    the second group is in Christ by new birth...SPIRITUAL Birth.

    So if all men die in Adam.....and all men are physically born in adam...all die in Him.
    The bible does not teach that ALL MEN are going to be found IN CHRIST.

    It does teach that God has elected a multitude to be IN CHRIST.
    Those elected out from the mass of dead humanity , by a supernatural work are placed in saving union with Christ.

    This agrees with all of Pauls writings. This is simple and straight forward.

    This passage is a wonderful proof text for Particular Redemption. Jesus dies for all the Father has given to Him.Not one is lost. All in Christ are saved.

    all those who have died in adam and remain in that realm of sin and death perish in Him. All who are In Christ live in him.

    ALL still means ALL:thumbs:
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Jun 29, 2012
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Sounds like Universalism.
     
    #13 Grasshopper, Jun 29, 2012
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Calvinism teaches man is fully responsible for his choices.

    In verse 18-20....this is spoken to the nation who is in rebellion. They were in a conditional covenant concerning the land promises.
    They are being intreated to obey the terms of the covenant as in Deut 28...blessings and cursings...they were already In covenant with God,bound by it's terms.
    while many a fine sermon is offered by way of application,the text is not an invitation to the heathen by and large.

    it does not speak to the question of the condition of mans will. it does speak to him being responsible.

    No..it does not. If anything history shows that most of them perished in unbelief....and if God have not had an elect remnant to keep the godly line alive they would have all been toast.
    A brief glance at the context helps here:thumbs: the fact that Paul quotes this VS 9 in Romans establishes the doctrine of Individual salvation by election...
    Good verses benjamin...keep them coming:wavey: I knew you were secretly desiring to come to the light on these doctrines:thumbs:
     
    #14 Iconoclast, Jun 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2012
  15. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    STOP! YOU ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE REQUESTED CALVINIST PRINCIPLES OF DEBATE!

    This tread is to demonstrate that Non-Calvinist do indeed use scripture to refute the Determinist system and is to comply with the demands of the Calvinist/Determinist for a scriptural food-fight with WITHOUT getting into philosophical debate which would require ethical rules of argument (i.e. “carnal philosophical reasoning”).

    The topic is simple, offer Anti-Calvinism scripture to show it does indeed exists while maintaining the premise in the OP. Please stay on topic which only requires presenting such non-existent scripture and a “brief” explanation of why the scripture is use.

    If anyone wants to start a “carnal philosophical argument” involving in-depth reasoning about a particular scriptural interpretation then: START YOUR TREAD ON THAT SUBJECT.
     
    #15 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  16. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Well-Known Member

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    Using 1 Cor 15:22 I can understand but used systematically how does this appear? Doesn't this promote universalism? If so then your scripture does not refute the L in TULIP. For God does not contradict Himself.
     
    #16 SolaSaint, Jun 29, 2012
  17. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    STOP! OFF TOPIC!!!

    There is NO "carnal philosophical reasoning" included in this tread as per your RULES! "No Correction is welcomed!"This tread is merely to demonstrate that we use scripture to support our Anti-Calvinism position! There is no resorting to "carnal philosophical reasoning".
     
    #17 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    STOP! This tread is not open to "carnal philosphical reasoning"!!! I have presented the scriptiure as requested and can not help it if you are blind to its clear meaning. Why can't you stick to the scriptures?!? Because you can't!!!
     
    #18 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
  19. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Ridiculous. Can you use some more derogatory terminology? Nothing he said had any carnality to it, no matter what size font you've used in response. As far as how you've acted above, well the carnality there is glaring.

    You've been answered concisely, proven incorrect by jhb28 and iconoclast. They exegeted and you eisegeted. Same stuff different day.

    :thumbs: :wavey:
     
    #19 preacher4truth, Jun 29, 2012
  20. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    1) (Deu 4:29) But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    2) Scripture containing a promise which, if true, requires the ability of a free will response.

    3) Refutes the Determinist’ doctrine of total inability/depravity.
     
    #20 Benjamin, Jun 29, 2012
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