Featured SIN DOES NOT SEND MAN TO HELL....Bear With Me...lol

Didn't you start an identical thread in the other Christian denomination forum? That is against the rules. You need to decide where you want to discuss this and ask a moderator to close the other one.

That said, it should be an interesting topic and I look forward to reading others take on it.

 

Then you must believe all babies and little children who die go straight to hell, because they are born sinners (which is an action, not a condition).

Funny, if we are born sinners separated from God, why did Jesus tell his disciples they must be converted and become as little children?

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Was Jesus telling his disciples they need to be converted and become wicked little sinners that are separated from God to enter the kingdom of heaven?

Jesus also said that angels watch over little children.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Does God set angels to guard over wicked little sinners who are separated from God?

I think you might need to reconsider your view, it is not wise to teach error.

 

I DO have an argument. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. If children are sinners as you claim, then Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become sinners to enter heaven. Nonsensical.

No, this only makes sense if little children are not sinners.

Sin is transgression of God's law. It is not something you are born with like blue eyes or blond hair.

1 Jhn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is breaking God's law. It is not a condition like being born with a disease. You can't be born a sinner, you have to break God's law to be a sinner.

You are the one who needs to try again.

 

Double Post

 

Is your mission here to contradict everything that is orthodox?

Yes, we go to hell because of sin, both original and the actual sins we commit.

 

Where is the Bible clear about this?

 

If what you consider orthodox is error and disagrees with scripture, then yes.

Being orthodox does not mean something is correct. For a Catholic, it is orthodox to believe the wine and bread literally turn into the blood and body of Christ. This is orthodox in the RCC, and it is absolute error.

Because something is orthodox never proves it is correct or scriptural.

 

Winman, that is true. However, I am assuming orthodox in the context of this board, which is to require that its members are baptist. There are many details we as baptists disagree on, but certain things, such as the doctrine of sin should be consistent.

 

I don't see much orthodoxy here, we have Reformed Baptists, non-Cal Baptists, even a few Charismatic Baptists.

Not all Baptists believe in Original Sin, John Smyth who is credited with starting the "Baptist" denomination did not believe in Original Sin.

I read this statement by a Catholic once about Baptists, the fellow has a real point;

This fellow is correct, many of you claim Original Sin is true, yet deny it in actuality. If Original Sin is really true, then all children who die before they trust in Jesus go to hell.

 

I don't deny original sin and I don't claim a child is innocent before the so called "age of accountability". I am not sure what happens to a child who dies in infancy, but I do believe that everyone who will be in heaven will be there because of God's grace, specifically due to Christ's atoning work.

Now, as to many baptists being inconsistent on this topic, you are exactly correct come to think of it.

 

Yes, I am consistent, I do not believe in Original Sin, and I DO believe in the age of accountability. Just a few scriptures I believe supports the age of accountability are Deu 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Rom 7:9-11 and others.

The fellow who started this thread is inconsistent, he claims a person cannot enter heaven because he is born sinful, and then contradicts himself and says he believes in the age of accountability.

Most Baptists do not REALLY believe in Original Sin, although they THINK they do. They hold to two contradictory positions at the same time.

 

Then you do not really believe in Original Sin. If you believed in Original Sin you would believe children are GUILTY of Adam's sin.

What you really believe is that a person becomes a sinner when they knowingly sin against God. Very good, that is scriptural.

What you probably believe is that men are born with a propensity to sin because of Adam. This is true in some respects. Adam and Eve were made flesh and were able to sin from the beginning. When they sinned, corruption was introduced into the world. This corruption may contribute to a propensity to sin, the flesh is described as "infirmity" or weakness in scripture.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Infirmity literally means weakness or want of strength. The corruption Adam introduced into the world may very well contribute to our infirmity and make it more probable and easier to sin. We also are influenced by all the evil around us.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

This verse was written before the disciples received the Holy Spirit. Jesus said his disciple's spirits were willing to obey him, but their flesh was weak. This is why men are so prone to sin.

But going back, Original Sin teaches that men are born guilty of Adam's sin. If you believe in the age of accountability, then you do not believe in Original Sin. The Catholics baptized babies to wash away Adam's sin, we Baptists do not do this.

 

So are you saying that some come in some other way that through Christ? If a child dies and goes to heaven, it is through the saving Grace of of Christ, not due to any innocence on the part of the child.

Please quote the passage where Nathan explains this. I don't remember reading this.
David does say that he will go and see his son, but it is far from a full explanation of the doctrine.

 

Little children are free from sin and without guilt because they are not yet convicted of sin.

We are to return to that condition by being saved after which we are again free from sin and without guilt (at least that's what happened to me).

If what you say is true then babies would never die an untimley death being without sin.

Why should innocent babies die who have no sin (as you claim)?
The only answer is that they die as a result of Adam's sin since they have none of their own.

HankD

 

Close but no Cigar

Yes, we Christians have many misconceptions, otherwise we would all believe the same things. I think the Calvinists and Arminians hold mistaken views. They return the favor.

1) Scripture says our sin causes a separation between God and man, for He is holy, and therefore because we are unholy, we must be separated from God. The separation is a "sinful" condition.

2) Scripture says the many were made sinners by the transgression of the one (Adam) therefore as a consequence of Adam's sin, we are conceived in iniquity, which is unholy and therefore in a separated from God condition.

3) We all sin, and have fallen short of the glory of God, therefore with each sin, we not only reinforce the separation, we store up wrath for ourselves and we will receive punishment for our deeds in Hades and Gehenna.

4) If we reject Jesus, do not believe His miracles such as healing the sick, and rising from the grave, that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and so, we will not be forgiven because Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Jesus. But even if we reject Jesus at first, like His half brothers, James and Jude, if we come to our senses and change our minds and do believe from our heart Jesus rose from the dead, we will be saved. In summary, if we die in unbelief, we will not be forgiven.]

5) The gospel of Christ is the work product of the Holy Spirit, who inspired the very words of the gospel, as well as providing the power by which Jesus performed His miracles. And so we are nudged, exhorted, and commanded to believe by the Holy Spirit through the gospel of Christ.

6) Yes, we must be born again to be saved, for we were conceived in iniquity, and so our birth into say a Jewish home or a Christian home, does not save us. Bloodline or culture or the beliefs of our loved ones will not make us white as snow, only the precious blood of Jesus.

7) God is life, so we are made alive together with Christ. Before we are "together" united with Christ we are not alive, therefore we are spiritually separated from God which means we are separated, dead, in our trespasses. No one is regenerated outside of Christ, all who are regenerated were first placed in Christ, baptized spiritually into His death, circumcised with the circumcision done without hands where our body of flesh (sin) is removed and then arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.

8) We are flesh and spirit, and our soul is the core characteristics of our spirit, so we are a two part creation.

9) God forms our spirit within us, therefore we are born with a spirit.

10) Yes when we are conceived we have not done anything good or bad, but we are conceived in a separated from God state, thus condemned already because of unbelief. Those that die before they have done anything bad still die in unbelief. Some folks try to add to scripture and speculate God fixes this by sending a dream to them which compels them to trust in Christ such that they enter heaven. But such arguments from silence are the invention of men.

 

HankD, were you meaning to quote someone with the first part of this?

Children are not "free from sin". Both of my daughters were born sinners and started exercising their own sinful wills virtually immediately.

If one must be confronted with the law in order to be guilty, then the worst thing we can do is to send missionaries to peoples that have never heard the Gospel.