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Featured Were there no elders/bishops/pastors in the New Testament?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Logos1560, Jul 29, 2013.

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  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    One poster, using inconsistent and faulty reasoning, has tried to assert that there were no "pastors" in the Bible.

    The New Testament given to the apostles and N. T. prophets was not in English so that no English words are the words that proceeded directly from God by inspiration. English Bibles are translations of the original language words.

    Is there any English Bible that always and consistently translated every original language word by only one English word? No.

    Is there any English Bible that does not use any Latin-based English words? None, that I know of.

    The fact that a present English word originally came from some other language such as Latin is not sound evidence that it does not belong in an English translation.

    The fact that one Greek word is translated "shepherds" in some verses does not prove that it is wrong for it to be translated "pastors" in another verse.

    Is any man the sole authority for asserting which English word or rendering belongs in an English translation and which does not? No, not according to what the scripture teaches.

    The proper derived authority of all English words in any English Bible depends upon the greater authority of the preserved original language words of Scripture.

    When was the English rendering "elders" introduced in English translations?

    The old 1300's Wycliffe's Bible has "priests" instead of "elders" at Acts 14:23.

    The first English New Testament translated from Greek by William Tyndale in 1526 has "seniors" instead of "elders" at Acts 14:23.

    William Tyndale was likely the first man to introduce the rendering "elders" into an English Bible at Acts 14:23 in his 1534 English New Testament.

    Is the English rendering "elders" supposedly wrong because it was introduced by a man [William Tyndale] into an English Bible in the 1500's?

    The old 1300's Wycliffe's Bible has "bischops" [bishops] at Acts 20:28 before some later English Bibles used "overseers."

    There is a sound scriptural case for saying that there was a plurality of elders, bishops or overseers, or pastors or shepherds [all terms referring to the same men] in some or many New Testament congregations.

    Has it been soundly proven from the Scriptures that it is wrong and unscriptural if a congregation has only one elder/overseer/pastor?

    The term "elder" is singular at 1 Timothy 5:19. The term "elder" is singular at 1 Peter 5:1 ["an elder"] as well as also being used as plural "elders" in that same verse. The rendering "bishop" or "overseer" that is synonymous to "elder" is singular at 1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:7. Some may argue that the singular messenger [angel] to each of the seven individual congregations in Revelation 2 and 3 was the elder/overseer/pastor of that local church.
     
    #1 Logos1560, Jul 29, 2013
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    When was this and what passages say that there must be multiple elders? I have yet to find one single passage that asserts every church must always have multiple elders.
     
    #2 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The New Testament does refer to the appointing or choosing of "elders" [plural] in every congregation or church (Acts 14:23), but it does not clearly command that every congregation must have a plurality of elders.

    My points and questions were directed at the faulty reasoning of the poster who started the thread "No Pastors in the Bible."

    In that thread entitled "No Pastors in the Bible,"
    Where in the New Testament does it refer to a "college of Elders"?

    Pastors do say and teach from the pulpit that pastors are elders/overseers.

    Pastor is an English word, regardless of what language that it first came from. Many English words originally derived or came from some other language, but that does not mean that they are not English words.
     
    #3 Logos1560, Jul 29, 2013
  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Which is what I am saying. The thread in which you are talking about tried to say that it does yet could provide no evidence. His support for his position was based on practice alone.


    My position is that practice alone does not set a clear presidence that is the only acceptable way to do it according to scripture.
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    What was Timothy then?

    believe problem is that the NT has SAME meaning vested in elder/pastor/overseer/bishop etc, that the chief/head local church spiritual authority were all called that, godly men called and chosen by God!

    Only much later did the terms get vested with different meaning, but originally all referred to same position!
     
    #5 Yeshua1, Jul 29, 2013
  6. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    You know full well that Elders is in the plural.
     
    #6 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  7. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    I am sorry but I cannot follow your reasoning. Just look at the Bible and decide.
    Which of these Bible verses says pastors are to shepherd the Church:

    Acts 20:28 (To the Elders Paul says) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

    Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders (πρεσβύτερος) in every town, as I directed you.

    This is God’s plan…it is the Holy Spirit that appoints the Elders. What part do you disagree?

    Where is even a suggestion of a pastor?
     
    #7 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Pastor means shepherd so we can start with Acts 20:28
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  9. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Thousands and thousands of pastors who live off the people of God, doing nothing that the church could not for themselves. Not a single pastor of all the thousands can answer a very, very simple question:

    Which of these Bible verses says pastors are to shepherd the Church:

    Acts 20:28 (To the Elders Paul says) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

    Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders (πρεσβύτερος) in every town, as I directed you.

    This is God’s plan…it is the Holy Spirit that appoints the Elders. What part do you disagree? Under what authority does the pastor claim the right to set aside the Bible on this matter, or for any matter.
     
    #9 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  10. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Yes, and you are well aware that word, pastor is NOT in the Bible, and you are quite aware that the work of "overseeing" and "shepherding" is the work giving by the Holy Spirit to a group of people called the Elders of the Church. You do not need to study Greek, it is simple enough in English.
     
    #10 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Yep he is part of the house church movement. His accusatory and inflammatory language towards those he knows nothing of only shows his attitude, heart and it exhibits the exact same language you see from the house church movement.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  12. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Open up your Greek Bibles and I challenge anyone to find the word "pastor." Simple challenge. In the entire history of the Greek language never once is ποιμένας (poimén) translated "pastor."
     
    #12 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  13. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    I think we have discovered the densest form of matter on the earth- a stubborn pastor who refuses to be called one.
     
    #13 Mexdeaf, Jul 29, 2013
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    He is not a pastor and never has been one. He has clearly demonstrated that.
     
    #14 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  15. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    I have already told you I am not a part of any movement other than to be a faithful follower of Jesus. Again....Which of these Bible verses says pastors are to shepherd the Church:

    Acts 20:28 (To the Elders Paul says) Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood

    Titus 1:5-9 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders (πρεσβύτερος) in every town, as I directed you.

    This is God’s plan…it is the Holy Spirit that appoints the Elders. What part do you disagree?

    I wait. Where are your scholars? Where are all the pastors out that that claim the Bible to be true then usurp the Spirit appointed Shepherds and Overseers of the Church, the Elders?
     
    #15 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  16. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    You have never identified yourself as a pastor. IF you are one it is not to late to lead your Church to follow the biblical model for the Church. Not to late. What prevents you from doing so? Pride? Losing your career? I do not know but you must consider the Church. They need their Elders returned to their proper place. Otherwise, stop saying you are a Bible believing Christian. If I am wrong on any point I await your defense. If you are a pastor are you an Elder?
     
    #16 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Trinity is not in the Bible either.
     
    #17 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  18. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    It would be interesting to call his church and see who answers the phone and what title they give. :)
     
    #18 Mexdeaf, Jul 29, 2013
  19. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    You believe the Trinity which you say is not in the Bible, then you dismiss Elders which IS clearly, unmistakably in the Bible. Why? Are you supported by the Church?
     
    #19 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Uh no the word trinity is not used in the bible. You say pastor is not in the bible and because of that condemn it use. But you have no problem using trinity. Your inconsistency and agenda is showing.
     
    #20 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
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