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Featured 1 Corinthians 6 disproves OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 22, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    On the Romans 11 we saw that the chapter includes the saved who are the "remnant in Israel" in Paul's day ("at the present time") who like Paul accept Christ and also it included those gentiles who are "fellow partakers with them" (the remnant branchES)- and who "Stand by your faith".

    It was shown on that thread that the chapter fully debunks OSAS and the only way to get OSAS to "appear to survive" the chapter was to carefully avoid the parts of the chapter speaking to individual salvation for those who "stand by their faith" as Paul said in Romans 11.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=90647

    So then to try and save OSAS the idea was that we not quote from Romans 11 in the parts where it points to individual salvation but rather go look at 1Corinthians 6.

    So on this thread the subject is 1Corinthians 6 - and how it refutes OSAS.

    1 Corinthians 6

    [FONT=&quot]7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

    =========================

    First of all we can freely admit that the tradition of OSAS that rejects the bible doctrine on "perseverance of the saints" and spins it instead to "preservation of the saints" will 'need' a 1Cor 6 that says "do not be deceived no matter how unrighteous your actions you WILL inherit the kingdom of God".

    And the tradition of OSAS that does accept the Bible doctrine on "perseverance of the saints" will need a 1Cor 6 that says "if your behavior is unrighteous then it is proof that you were NEVER justified, were NEVER sanctified to start with and so you will not inherit the kingdom of God"

    However in the "actual" text of 1Cor 6 9 (this is where some may object to my consistent sola scriptura form of doctrinal testing) what we find in the actual text is --

    That those who WERE in fact sanctified and justified are being warned about their unrighteous behavior - "It is already a defeat for you" and saying "do NOT be deceived" about the fact that they cannot stand in the place of the unrighteous after having been justified and expect to get heaven for doing so.

    The language "Do NOT be DECEIVED" implies that some deception is being employed or possible regarding the idea that the saints who then turn to unrighteousness will still get "heaven" as the result.l

    In the same way 1 Cor 6:13-17 speaks to the same church members warning them about various sins against the body - the physical body including immorality and states that should they engage in such a thing they are choosing to be "at one" with that immoral behavior rather than being "at one" with Christ.

    1Cor 6
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
    14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
    16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "" THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.''
    17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    Thus we do not have the OSAS tradition of "preservation" saying "even if you are at one with an immoral person you are still at one with Christ" and we also do not have the "perseverance" form of OSAS saying that "if you are at one with Christ and then become at one with an immoral person - then your history is revoked and you were never at one with Christ".

    So while 1Cor 6 was supposedly the place to find OSAS proclaimed - what we find there is OSAS debunked.

    in Christ,

    Bob
    [/FONT]
     
    #1 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2013
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    "Inherit" God’s kingdom (verse 10) anticipates the theme of 15:50 (“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”). I agree with you that “people who do evil” and “children of God” is a contradiction, but I believe that it is not beyond reasonable interpretation to view Paul’s comments as a contrast of lifestyles which contradicts claims to Christian identity. In 1 Cor. 6 I do not find it unbiblical to interpret verses 9-11 as emphasizing the principle Paul develops in verses 1-8 rather than a standalone rebuttal of OSAS (e.g., ‘you were once like these who do evil, don’t go before unbelievers to seek judgment’). Although it is fair to disagree with this interpretation, it is not “unbiblical” to interpret these evil and habituated actions as evidence of an inauthentic transformation. The statement is not a “warning” to anyone, but instead an admonishment for the believers to arbitrate within the church between conflicting claims.
     
    #2 JonC, Dec 22, 2013
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is very simple folks; Ryan believes the Scripture according to Ellen G. White. Consider the passage he presents as evidence a child of God for whom Jesus Christ will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11
    9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Addressing the Church at Corinth the Apostle reminds them of those who will not "Inherit the Kingdom of God".

    9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


    This passage of Scripture, loosely quoted, even made national news this past week!

    The Apostle then reminds those in the Church at Corinth that the above two verses describes what some of them were in times past and before Jesus Christ!


    11. And such were some of you:

    BUT says the Apostle:

    but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Regardless of what they were in times past they are now declared righteous because of their salvation in Jesus Christ. The Apostle provides a more elaborate commentary on fallen man in Romans 1:16-32 and Romans 3:10-20. But the Apostle does not stop there. In the following Scripture he tells us:

    Romans 3:21-31
    21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
    24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Jesus Christ died and paid the penalty for our sins so that God could be just and still justify or declare righteous those who believe in Jesus Christ. Then in verse 28 the Apostle Paul declares: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[ Justified apart from works regardless of what Ellen G. White teaches. Jesus Christ puts it so simple that even the disciples of White should be able to understand if they would get White and their own ego out of the way.

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Everlasting is everlasting.

    Considering the following Scripture we see:

    John 3:14-19
    14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    The one who believes in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial death is not condemned but has eternal life. The one who does not believe is condemned. Seems rather simple compared to the doctrine of "investigative judgment", "soul sleep", "salvation by works", "annihilationism" and "heads I'm saved and tails I'm not" taught by the disciples of Ellen G. White.
     
    #3 OldRegular, Dec 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2013
  4. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    Yes, Roberto, all of these warnings apply to everyone living on the planet ...

    Christians habitually doing these sins will NOT inherit the kingdom of God:

    1 Cor 6:9-10
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
    nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
    will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Gal 5:19-21
    Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
    lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
    ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
    of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
    that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Eph 5:3-6
    But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,
    as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are
    not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person,
    nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
    Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God
    comes upon the sons of disobedience.

    Christians habitually doing these sins will NOT enter the New Jerusalem:

    Rev 21:27
    But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem, v.10) anything that defiles,
    or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    Rev 22:14-15
    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
    and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and
    sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    Christians habitually doing these sins will incur the wrath of God:

    Col 3:5-6
    Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth:
    fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
    Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience …

    Christians habitually doing these things are deserving of death:

    Rom 1:29-32
    … being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness,
    maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
    backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to
    parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the
    righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death …

    Christians habitually doing these sins will go into the lake of fire:

    Rev 21:7-8
    He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,
    idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
    which is the second death.
    .
     
    #4 evangelist-7, Dec 22, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The problem with trying to rework 1Cor 6 so there is no warning in it at all - is that there is no motivation to change behavior and obviously Paul is trying to get them to change.

    Now he "could have used" any kind of argument he wanted - but he chose this specific one - which I think was by the Holy Spirit.

    In this case it starts with "be not deceived".

    The self-deception was obviously that once saved they could indeed engage in such unchristian behavior and still "inherit the kingdom of God".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 6

    [FONT=&quot]7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.    [/FONT]


    The problem for OSAS is that these are not lost people that are now turning to unchristian behavior and being told that those who do such things will no "inherit the kingdom of God" - but rather these are people that were justified - that were sanctified - that are now being told "Be not deceived"

    [FONT=&quot]9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

    Paul is telling them that they are going down that very road --

    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    (A point you carefully omit in your post).

    [/FONT]    [/FONT]OSAS only survives by methods of "extreme inference" in texts that do not deal with the problem of the saved saint that begins to enter the path of rebellion against the Word of God - and then experience a "warning" such as 1Cor 6 and Romans 11 or even "forgiveness revoked" as in the case of Matt 6 and Matt 18.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes indeed - God makes it clear to all - and warns all not to be deceived on this subject.


    1. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.
    2. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... 9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
    3. 1 John 2:26 I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
    4. 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Dec 22, 2013
  8. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    And presented unto you by an actual habitual sinner. Go figure?

    "I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak" (Matt12:36)

    Doesn't look good for you according to your own doctrine.
     
    #8 steaver, Dec 22, 2013
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Christians habitually doing these sins will NOT inherit the kingdom of God:

    E-7 Do you practice "covetousness," "foolish talking, or "lying," all of which are mentioned above?
    How often do you practice these sins?
    Once a day; five to ten times a day; how often do you lie, or how often during this holiday season have you coveted something, or how often just on these boards have you engaged in "foolish talking"? That last question can be answered by the board members themselves, perhaps. How often?

    Or, do you claim sinlessness?
     
    #9 DHK, Dec 22, 2013
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And your excuse is???
     
    #10 DHK, Dec 22, 2013
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Ellen G. White!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #11 OldRegular, Dec 22, 2013
  12. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7 New Member

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    More hatred cometh forth ...
    towards those who quote God's Truth (and present IT like the prophets of olde)
    from those who are unbelievers in God's Truth (and are scared to death by IT).

    Praise the Lord ... and Merry Christmas to all.
    .
     
    #12 evangelist-7, Dec 23, 2013
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Since when is the application of Scripture hatred.
    There is no hatred in what I posted to you.
    I want you to answer the post. You posted the Scripture. Scripture has a timeless value. It is as applicable and inspired today as it was then.
    I ask again:
     
    #13 DHK, Dec 23, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Now finally we have something I can agree with from DHK on this thread.

    I am all for the application of scripture - but sadly what we sometimes find here is objection to it or making light of it.

    Yet as Paul said "God is not mocked".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Dec 23, 2013
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Bob Ryan and E-7 are on this forum for the purpose of causing trouble, pulling peoples chain by starting false threads, spouting false doctrine, and perverting the Gospel. They post the same Scripture repeatedly, with or without false interpretation. We would all do well to simply ignore their threads. Whether they are real or not I cannot say. I can say that Ryan is pushing a heretical doctrine and E-7 is pushing nonsense.
     
    #15 OldRegular, Dec 24, 2013
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by evangelist-7 [​IMG]

    Yes, Roberto, all of these warnings apply to everyone living on the planet ...

    Christians habitually doing these sins will NOT inherit the kingdom of God:

    1 Cor 6:9-10
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
    nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
    will inherit the kingdom of God.

    ...

    Rev 22:14-15
    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
    and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and
    sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    ...
    Rev 21:7-8
    He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,
    idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
    which is the second death.

    In some recent posts the assumption seems to be that name-calling and gaming this Bible teaching will erase it --

    Not working because "God is not mocked" -

    Gal 5
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Dec 25, 2013
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Have you ever been covetous? Have you ever lied?
    Have you kept all of God's commandments--all the time?
    Are you perfectly sinless?
     
    #17 DHK, Dec 25, 2013
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the bible states that real chrsitians will NOT be those who habitually/continually sin aginst God, for they will eventually come back toHim for full restoration...

    So yiou are arguing againsta straw man, for OSAS does NOT say that one lives like the Fevil after getting saved, but that we can and do sin at times, sometimes badly, yet will confess/repent/forsake back to the Lord!
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Dec 26, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 6:9-10
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
    nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
    will inherit the kingdom of God.

    ...

    Rev 22:14-15
    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life,
    and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and
    sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

    ...
    Rev 21:7-8
    He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
    But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers,
    idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone,
    which is the second death.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    Yes indeed - God makes it clear to all - and warns all not to be deceived on this subject.


    1. Ephesians 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.
    2. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.... 9 The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, 10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned—those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
    3. 1 John 2:26 I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
    4. 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.


    In some recent posts the assumption seems to be that name-calling and gaming this Bible teaching will erase it --

    Not working because "God is not mocked" -

    Gal 5
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    1Cor 6 does not say "you are acting badly because you were never saved to start with" - as you seem to imagine.

    1 Cor 6 is not saying "the lost are at risk of becoming lost-ER" as many imagine.

    OSAS does not survive the details in the text itself .


    Instead of arguing "you are at risk - because you were never sanctified - never justified, never washed, never forgiven" as the OSAS tradition seeks to "imagine" in 1Cor 6 --

    We have this...


    1 Corinthians 6

    [FONT=&quot]7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
    8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.    [/FONT]

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Aug 27, 2002
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    Clearly 1Cor 6 disproves OSAS
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jan 3, 2014
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