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Featured Why Purgatory is not in the Bible - it does not exist

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 21, 2015.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Purgatory and the associated indulgences system is not found in the Bible - and yet if this purgatory-and-indulgences system is to be the main concern for truly compassionate family members and friends when a loved one dies - then certain it would get mentioned a few times and the importance of helping out a loved one while in this not-quite-heaven-but-in-torment state would be emphasized for the sincere Christian.

    It is not mentioned - and what is more a counter-system a contrasting- picture is given in the Bible - one that contradicts purgatory in every way.

    1 Thess 4 "Therefore comfort one another with these words" - this is the comfort for Christians on the subject of a loved one that has passed away. It is entirely focused on the resurrection - not on purgatory-helpout-efforts.

    The entire focus is on the dead being brought back to life at the resurrection.

    1 Thess 4

    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    John 5 Jesus describes two resurrections one for the righteous "A resurrection of life" and one for the wicked. But no purgatory. Even the wicked will not suffer until that resurrection of damnation/condemnation subjected to what John calls the '2nd death' in Rev 20.

    Peter said to fix our hope entirely on the 2nd coming event - and the associated resurrection.

    1 Peter 1:13
    12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


    The resurrection is the point at which living active thinking activity resumes - there is no purgatory in the Bible, no torment for the departed loved ones.

    In 2Tim 4 Paul looks forward to the 2nd coming and resurrection at which point he will receive his reward.

    2Tim 4
    7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

    "Let not your heart be troubled... I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there you may be also" John 14:1-3.

    Phil 3 Paul does everything possible "in order that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" the correct resurrection of the two mentioned in John 5 and also in Rev 20:1-5.

    So while it is true that for the one dying there is no time at all spent in death - it is the twinkling of an eye for them - but for those who are alive - we know that it is the resurrection event at the 2nd coming to which the Bible points us.

    No wonder in Matt 22 Christ insists that it is only because of the future resurrection of the dead that God can rightly say "I AM the God of Abraham"
     
    #1 BobRyan, Apr 21, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2015
  2. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

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    If someone is saved, and they commit a venial sin after being saved, and they do not repent or confess that sin, do you contend that if they died immediately after committing that sin, they would not need to be cleansed of that sin before entering Heaven?

    You will probably avoid answering/can't answer because it would be opening the door to Purgatory if you answered in the negative. But, if you answer in the affirmative, then you are saying one can get into Heaven with the stain of unrepented sin on their soul - which contradicts the Bible.
     
    #2 lakeside, Apr 22, 2015
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Let's consider your point then.

    Is Purgatory simply allowing the deceased a few minutes of quality time to repent? If so why cut that time short via indulgences?? Why not let them have even 20 or 30 minutes maybe to review those sins and say "I confess and I repent"? Why deprive anyone of blessed purgatory time - after all do you want them rushed into heaven without having a few minutes to confess and repent of anything that might have been missed during this life?

    However I must admit that this idea of "blessed time to calmly reflect, confess and repent just before entering heaven" idea of a paradise-purgatory is not what I find in a lot of the literature that promotes indulgences and quotes the view that those in purgatory are being punished, suffering consequences for sin after sin... etc.
     
    #3 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
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  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    By contrast to that rather "paradise purgatory" view where it is just a place of peaceful meditation and reflection - a few minutes just before entering heaven for one to confess and repent of any missed-sins -- that may have been inadvertently omitted in prayers and confessions in life .. there is the "punishment, consequence and torment" view of Purgatory where indulgences ... even plenary indulgences are frantically sought after on behalf of a loved one where it is presumed/assumed/supposed that they are in torment in purgatory punishment - seeking to get someone to let them out.

    And this model we find here --

    [FONT=&quot]God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. But of those who suffer temporary [/FONT][FONT=&quot]punishments after death[/FONT][FONT=&quot], all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]they are not punished with the eternal punishment.of the world to come."[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    Augustine,City of God,21:13(A.D. 426),in NPNF1,II:464


    So then that is two very different views. I[FONT=&quot] think both are [FONT=&quot]wrong -[FONT=&quot] but [FONT=&quot]I find t[FONT=&quot]he peaceful-parad[FONT=&quot]ise-purgatory version to be at [FONT=&quot]least a nice idea for those who have died. [FONT=&quot]How bles[FONT=&quot]sed for them th[FONT=&quot]at they get that time in purgatory[FONT=&quot] in that case, may t[FONT=&quot]hey enjoy it to the fullest[/FONT]. But the second[FONT=&quot] view is another matter entirely [FONT=&quot]- and indulgences would be needed from that spiritual "bank of excess suffering[FONT=&quot]" to get them out asap.

    [FONT=&quot]The [FONT=&quot]B[/FONT]ible option is simply that they are [FONT=&quot]asleep in Jesus - and experien[FONT=&quot]ce no to[FONT=&quot]rment, no reg[FONT=&quot]ret, no discom[FONT=&quot]fort[/FONT][/FONT] at all - awaiting the resurrec[FONT=&quot]tion of the dead[FONT=&quot], [FONT=&quot]yet not even "waiting" since they [FONT=&quot]are[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]dormant[/FONT] and ex[FONT=&quot]p[FONT=&quot]erience no event, no time, no waiting.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT]
     
    #4 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2015
  5. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

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    BobRyan, whatever are you talking about ? Indulgences, you do not understand indulgences. I as a Catholic have not ever experienced for myself or any other Catholic, that I know, with any involvement with 'indulgences".

    Nothing unclean gets into Heaven as according to Book of Revelation..

    Bob, why not answer my question, it is not difficult to answer a simple Yes or No, then please give a simple explanation of your choice, here it is again:

    If someone is saved, and they commit a venial sin after being saved, and they do not repent or confess that sin, do you contend that if they died immediately after committing that sin, they would not need to be cleansed of that sin before entering Heaven?

    You will probably avoid answering/can't answer because it would be opening the door to Purgatory if you answered in the negative. But, if you answer in the affirmative, then you are saying one can get into Heaven with the stain of unrepented sin on their soul - which contradicts the Bible.
     
    #5 lakeside, Apr 22, 2015
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe that with each sin - one loses salvation so if you died and you just so happened to have sinned and did not have time to confess - then the Bible answer still works for you - and you need no purgatory. (Hopefully this answer is not considered to be avoiding the question -- I think it is direct and to the point).

    If however as you say there is some form of "a few moments for thoughtful reflection" in purgatory where you confess and repent of anything you may not have thought about just before you died - I don't think that is too traumatic or something to wish you could get out of.

    As for the "other idea" -- the "punishment" of purgatory and the associate fire --
    ===========================================================

    [FONT=&quot]1030 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo [/FONT][FONT=&quot]purification, so as to achieve the holiness [/FONT][FONT=&quot]necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

    1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]the punishment of the damned[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that,[/FONT][FONT=&quot] before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]1032 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]This teaching is also based on [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the practice of prayer for the dead[/FONT][FONT=&quot], already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honoured [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the memory of the dead[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]indulgences[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[/FONT]


    [FONT=&quot]The punishments of sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

    [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]1472 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the “eternal punishment”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]These two punishments[/FONT][FONT=&quot] must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

    1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, [/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]but temporal punishment of sin remains.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”[/FONT]

    Catholic Encyclopedia - New Advent

    Venial sins

    All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God's law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil" (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.


    Cath Encyclopedia on

    Purgatorial Fire

    Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").
    ===============================================
    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#VI

    I am not complaining that you do not appear to agree with what they teach on this point - rather I applaud you for it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2015
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That model of fire, and punishment and torment in Purgatory - well people are in detention there - "detained there" for that time of torment. (This is not the model that you hold - so no worries -- just pointing to the official statements in this post).

    Catholic Encyclopedia - New Advent

    [FONT=&quot]Indulgences[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]The [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Council of Trent[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Sess. XXV) defined that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]indulgences[/FONT][FONT=&quot] are "most salutary for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Christian[/FONT][FONT=&quot] people" and that their "use is to be retained in the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Church[/FONT][FONT=&quot]". It is the common teaching of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Catholic[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]theologians[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot](1) Augustine ([/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]City of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] XX.9[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]) declares that the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]souls[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]faithful[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] departed are not separated from the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Church[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot], which is the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]kingdom of Christ[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot], and for this reason the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]prayers[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and works of the living are helpful to the dead. "If therefore", argues [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Bellarmine[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] (De indulgentiis, xiv) "we can offer our [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]prayers[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and our satisfactions in behalf of those detained in purgatory, because we are members of the great body of [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Christ[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot], why may not the [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Vicar of Christ[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] apply to the same [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]souls[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] the superabundant satisfaction of [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Christ[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and his [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]saints[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]--of which he is the dispenser?" [/FONT]
     
    #7 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    One pro-Catholic historian describe Purgatory and Indulgences this way -

    A Concise History of the Catholic Church
    Thomas Bokenkotter
    P191-192
    There was in fact, as Lortz says, an externalism run riot: pilgrimages of all kinds, a superstitious cult of relics and of the saints, a semimagical and materialistic view of the efficacy of the mass – all giving the impression that heaven was something you could buy, like anything else.
    The most blatant example, however, was undoubtedly the cult of indulgences. In 1343 Poe Clement VI officially sanctioned the view that Christ and the saints had left a treasury of merits that other members of the Church could draw on for the remission of the temporal punishment due to their sins. One obtained a share in these merits by means of a Church indulgence – usually granted by the Pope in exchange for some good work, often a donation of money, performed by the recipients. Official doctrine always insisted on the need for an accompanying interior repentance on the part of the recipient too.
    Eventually it became official doctrine that indulgences could be applied to the souls in purgatory on the supposition that as equal members of the Mystical Body of Christ they too could participate in the merits of their saintly fellow members. However justifiable such a teaching might have been in theory, in practice it was a dangerous development since it involved considerable ambiguity. Its actual efficacy was described in the technical Latin as “per modum suffragii” – meaning “insofar as God hears the prayers of the Church”. It also minimized, of course, the aspect of personal repentance that up to this time was always an important part of receiving an indulgence. A door was thus opened to the unscrupulous to present an indulgence as a quas-automatic and easy means of salvation. And we know that this is what happened in the case of the particular indulgence that aroused the wrath of Luther and triggered his revolt against the Church.
    It was a scandalous indulgence in several respects. First, it was ostensibly preached in order to rebuild St. Peter’s, but it was actually concocted as a deal among the Fugger banking firm, the Roman Curia, and the twenty-three-year-old archbishop of Mainz, who agreed to split the proceeds. Albert, the archbishop, thus hoped to pay the immense tax of ten thousand ducats levied on him by the Curia for the dispensation he needed in order to hold three dioceses – Mainz, and Madgeburg(both archbishopsrics), in addition to Halberstadt. Second it was preached by Tetzel, a Dominican whose sermons were sub-Christian: “Drop a few coins in the box”, he shouted to the gaping crowds, “ you can rescue the souls of your friends or relatives from the flames of purgatory”.
    …
     
    #8 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Another Catholic source explaining there purgatory-fire-punishment-torment model and how indulgences can help out in that regard.

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/20...reasury-of-merit-and-the-communion-of-saints/


    (9) The debt of temporal punishment for sins committed after baptism “must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments.”6 That is because as explained in the first paragraph above, every sin must be recompensed, both in its vertical dimension against God and in its horizontal dimension against other creatures. It might seem that since Christ’s passion made sufficient satisfaction for all sins, therefore no debt of temporal punishment remains. That is true for baptism, but not for penance, as St. Thomas Aquinas explains here.

    (10) The Church, by the authorization of Christ, and through the communion of saints, can draw from the one treasury of merit and satisfaction to reduce or remove the debt of temporal punishment for anyone united to the Body through sanctifying grace. And that is just what an indulgence is:
    An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.7
    St. Thomas says, “He who gains indulgences is not thereby released outright from what he owes as penalty, but is provided with the means of paying it.”8 It is salutary to make use of the treasury of merit for the debt of temporal punishment; it is even better to be a depositor, storing up treasure in heaven.
     
    #9 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Some news in 2002 on Indulgences -
    C:\Bob\Bkup\REL\@REL Discussion\@REL Debates\RCC\Purgatory\Indulgences\For Catholics, heaven moves one step closer - International Herald Tribune.mht

    Title; "For Catholics, heaven moves one step closer"

    The announcement in church bulletins and on Web sites has been greeted with enthusiasm by some and wariness by others. But mainly, it has gone over the heads of a vast generation of Roman Catholics who have no idea what it means: "Bishop Announces Plenary Indulgences."
    In recent months, dioceses around the world have been offering Catholics a spiritual benefit that fell out of favor decades ago — the indulgence, a sort of amnesty from punishment in the afterlife — and reminding them of the church's clout in mitigating the wages of sin.
    The fact that many Catholics under 50 have never sought one, and never heard of indulgences except in high school European history (Martin Luther denounced the selling of them in 1517 while igniting the Protestant Reformation), simply makes their reintroduction more urgent among church leaders bent on restoring fading traditions of penance in what they see as a self-satisfied world.
    "Why are we bringing it back?" asked Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of New York, who has embraced the move. "Because there is sin in the world."
    ==================================================

    What I find interesting is that while the "Amnesty from punishment " has been fading -- the place of punishment "Purgatory" is still rock solid in the minds of many Catholics. That combination seems like "a bad thing".
     
    #10 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Catholic Answers regarding Indulgences - also helps explain Purgatory and why one might want out of Purgatory asap.

    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences


    Indulgences. The very word stirs up more misconceptions than perhaps any other teaching in Catholic theology. Those who attack the Church for its use of indulgences rely upon—and take advantage of—the ignorance of both Catholics and non-Catholics. What is an indulgence? The Church explains, "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain defined conditions through the Church’s help when, as a minister of redemption, she dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions won by Christ and the saints" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). To see the biblical foundations for indulgences, see the Catholic Answers tract A Primer on Indulgences.
    Step number one in explaining indulgences is to know what they are. Step number two is to clarify what they are not. Here are the seven most common myths about indulgences:


    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences
    =========================================================

    So then "temporal punishment due to sins" - is not exactly the paradise-purgatory of a few moments for thoughtful reflection, confession and repentance prior to stepping into heaven. Rather it is something to escape from as fast as possible - the more indulgences earned - the better.

    I am happy you do not buy into that - I myself do not buy into either - I think the Bible has a much better answer.
     
    #11 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
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  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no such thing as a venial sin; that concept is not found in the Bible.
    There is no such thing as a mortal sin; that concept is not found in the Bible.

    Sin is sin. Even the smallest sin will keep a person out of heaven.
    Sin is the transgression of the law.
    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    God is a holy God.
    Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

    The day I was saved he clothed me with a cloak of righteousness, the righteousness of Jesus Christ so that he no longer sees me, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ. Thus I am holy in his sight.
    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    I will never be condemned for my sins again:
    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

    The blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me from sin.
    1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    I know I have eternal life:
    1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    --I don't have to: hope, guess, think, etc. I know I have eternal life.

    Why?
    1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    --I have the Son. He, by the power of His Holy Spirit, came and indwelt my life more than 40 years ago, and I have never looked back since.

    Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    --There is nothing that separates me from God, or his love.
     
    #12 DHK, Apr 22, 2015
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Purgatory deals with the "punishment" still owed for a specific venial sin even AFTER one repents of that specific sin.

    ================================

     
    #13 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2015
  14. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

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    I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, you really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance [ excuse my ignorance for lack of a better word} and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

    So, Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and you apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question about that, how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

    Regarding Purgatory, the word is nowhere in the Bible. But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you? Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name. Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be ab le to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire. And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved. So, where is it that, after a man dies, and his works are judged, that he can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved? Hell? Nope. One suffers loss as through fire in Hell, but we both know that no one gets out of Hell. Heaven? Nope. Someone who is in Heaven is indeed saved, but we both know no one suffers loss in Heaven. So, where is it that after one dies, one could suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?

    – please take note that I keep answering BobRyan and others with Bible verse after Bible verse, and how do you people respond? You attack my faith. Never have any of you, in all of these exchanges replied to one of my arguments in a direct manner. You have simply declared yourselves right and me wrong.

    Finally, I will say this to you, please do not say that I do not believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and that neither does the Church that you know that I am a member of! Do you not know that the measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you? Or have you not yet gotten to that part of the Bible? I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. The Catholic Church believes in the inerrancy of Scripture. I do not believe in some parts of Scripture and not in others…I believe in all of it . I believe in every verse of Scripture…100%! The problem you have with me, is that I do not necessarily believe in your fallible, private, man–made interpretation of Scripture. I believe in Scripture, but I do not believe in your interpretation of Scripture. You believe those two things are one and the same – I do not.

    And since I have proven to you fellows, that when it comes to the Bible you really have the wrong interpretation, it infuriates you. How dare a Catholic best you in a discussion of Scripture, right?! There is only one interpretation and that ONE Interpretation was used when those early Christians selected from the many different books and letters that are found in our Bibles, that we all agree upon. Ask your Scripture study friends if you have been shown to be lacking in Scripture scholarship, logic, and simple charity in these exchanges and see what they say. I’ll bet you dare not even bring these emails up with them, do you? And I doubt they bring them up with you for fear of embarrassing you. Will you be man enough and honest enough [ at least be honest to yourself ] to continue with this subject ?
    Or am I going to get banned ? Please, think about my position, if there is any way that you can prove my interpretation is wrong then I promise you that I will join your church.
     
    #14 lakeside, Apr 22, 2015
  15. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    Most people will probably tell you paradise is the dwelling of the redeemed human spirits until we received our glorified bodies(rapture, resurrection, glorification... All that good stuff). When Paul uses "paradise" in 2 Corinthians, he also calls the same place the "third heaven". Which in Jewish usage is the dwelling place of God.

    1st Heaven: dwelling of birds of the air
    2nd Heaven: space of stars and planets
    3rd Heaven: dwelling of God

    Jesus has "not ascended to my Father" refers to him not taking his place at the right hand of the Father.

    Is God the Father in this Paradise with us? Before we receive our glorified bodies. I don't know. God the Son is obviously present. Jesus and the thief were both in paradise, Heaven, 3rd Heaven, what ever you want to call it. But it isn't purgatory, which is a frictional hold space with 0 biblical backing.
     
    #15 McCree79, Apr 22, 2015
  16. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
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    I have yet to see you "best" anyone in scripture. I haven't read anything, but I have seen a lot between you and DHK......you have yet to best him.

    You accuse people of going beyond scripture to form their own doctrine. When the RCC has made it clear, that the church and its tradition trumps scripture. That scripture is the lesser of authority. The RCC has been proven numerous times, on this forum, to have went beyond what is written. Which is violation of scripture. "....That you may learn by us, not to go beyond what is written".
     
    #16 McCree79, Apr 22, 2015
  17. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    For informative purposes:
    The concept of some sin leading to death (mortal) and other sins not leading to death (venial) is actually in the Bible.

    1 John 5:17 — All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
     
    #17 robustheologian, Apr 22, 2015
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Romans 6:23--"The wages of sin is death..."
    The consequence of all sin is death. Whether it be a lie or murder, sin leads to death and is the cause of exclusion from heaven.

    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    How many lies does it take to make a liar?

    Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    --What states in America still have the death penalty for murder?
    Do those same states also have the death penalty for adultery? No.

    Yet God says it is just as wrong to commit adultery as it is to kill. They are equally wrong. In fact if you commit one sin, transgress one law, you are just as guilty as if you broke them all.

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
     
    #18 DHK, Apr 22, 2015
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I rejected Catholicism because of its lies. Purgatory is the teaching of man not the teaching of God. It is not found in the Bible and you haven't presented any evidence for it.
    When Jesus said, "Today thou shalt be with me in 'Paradise,'" he wasn't referring to heaven. Paradise is the term used for the OT saints described in Luke 16:19-31, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus went to be with Abraham in Paradise. When Jesus died he went to Paradise and led those OT saints from Paradise into heaven.

    Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    "I am not yet ascended." Think about this. Jesus spent 40 days appearing to individuals before his ascension recorded in Acts chapter one. In reference to the statement Mary made in the garden in John 20:17, Clarke says this:
    BTW, Adam Clarke was a British Methodist theologian (not Baptist).
    Theology, Christology, Roman Catholic, eschatology, etc., are not in the Bible.
    Theology means "a study of God." Do you study about God?
    This passage speaks about The Judgement Seat of Christ is that Judgement before which every believer will stand.
    This is in contrast to Rev.20:10-15, which is The Great White Throne Judgment at which every unbeliever will stand, and will take place over one thousand years after the Judgment Seat of Christ.

    The Bible says:
    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    --This is the same judgement spoken about in 1Cor.3:10ff. And it is not purgatory.
    Here is the passage:
    1Co 3:11-15
    (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    (13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    (14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    (15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    --Note: There is no one that is being purged by fire, in punishment by fire, or in flames of fire in any way at all. Fire is not connected to any person.
    What is? It is the believers' works that are being tried, not the believers' salvation. Their salvation is secure; it is not in question. No one here is going to lose their salvation. They are already in heaven. This is a heavenly scene. It is heavenly, but a judgment in heaven.
    In verse 11--The believer's foundation is stated. It is not The Church. No. It is Christ. Christ is our foundation. Without Christ as Lord and Savior one does not have entrance into heaven.

    Verse 12, Every believer builds upon Christ as his foundation. The church is not our foundation but Christ is. We have a choice of six different things divided into two groups: 1) gold, silver, and precious stones, and 2) wood, hay, and stubble. Two groups of six things.
    The difference in these two groups are obvious. In the first, they are permanent and will withstand fire. In the second they are temporary and will burn.

    Verse 13 declares that this judgement day will openly declare every man's work:
    1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    --And those works will be revealed by fire. All your work will be symbolically represented as gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or stubble.
    The works that a believer has done for Christ in the Spirit of Christ will abide.
    But if those works have not been done in the right attitude they will suffer loss; they will burn in that fire. That person will suffer a Loss Of Reward.
    But note--he will not suffer a loss of salvation!
    1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    --He still is saved. Salvation is not in question.
    But I have explained the Bible. Basically you don't. The most you have done is quote a Catechism, but certainly haven't expounded any Bible text like I just did for you.
    The Bible teaches no such thing!
    You judge people every day, and you just made a judgement right now!
    One cannot go through life without making judgments. If I judge a person to be unsaved I will witness to them. If I judge them to be in need I will help them. OTOH, if that person is a beggar in a certain part of the city wanting money I may not help him. If I do I may be contributing to a drug problem or alcohol problem, so at least monetarily I will make a decision (judgment) not to help that person by giving money. You make judgments every day.

    The verse is speaking of hypocrites. Don't try to lecture someone about adultery if you are committing the same sin.
     
    #19 DHK, Apr 23, 2015
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What two things are the same?
    There is only one interpretation of Scripture--God's interpretation.
    I believe I have God's interpretation. I believe that the RCC's interpretation is from the devil. Even the Bible says that some of your practices are "doctrines of demons" (1Timothy 4:1-3). How do you account for that?
    I can go through one doctrine after another and show you how the RCC doctrines are against the Bible. So, if you believed the Bible you would leave the Catholic Church.
    Here is what it says:
    2Co 6:14-17
    (14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    (15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
    (16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    (17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    I don't have the wrong interpretation. Prove that I do. I have shown time after time after time--You are totally in the wrong!!
    Those earliest Christians were the Apostles, and there is nothing in which I disagree with them.
    Your interpretation is the RCC and it is easily proven through the Bible. It has never been proven right. You can't even prove it right. What are you talking about??
     
    #20 DHK, Apr 23, 2015
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