What Is a Jew or an Israelite?

[Aaron]

I think most here realize @Aaron is merely one of a growing number of antisemites drawn into conspiracy theories.

Yeah, along with that Jew hater St. John, and Paul, and anyone else with his eyes open.

 

[JonC]

Yeah, along with that Jew hater St. John, and Paul, and anyone else with his eyes open.

No. You are confusing ethnicity with religion.

Take Paul (if you don't mind I'll leave off "St" as I am not Catholic and consider all believers to be saints).

Paul was a Christian and a Jew (he even said he was a Jew). You say a Christian cannot be a Jew. Yet Scripture says otherwise.

Those who descended from the Israelites have a Jewish ancestory. This is even more prominent with Jews as somehow they have maintained their ethnic identity.

Perhaps the main contributing factor to these Israelites maintaining their ethnic identity is that they have been persecuted throughout history by antisemitic people like you. That type of racism, while evil, also generates a unity within the persecuted ethnic group. It preserves a national identity.

 

[Aaron]

No. You are confusing ethnicity with religion.

Take Paul (if you don't mind I'll leave off "St" as I am not Catholic and consider all believers to be saints).

Paul was a Christian and a Jew (he even said he was a Jew). You say a Christian cannot be a Jew. Yet Scripture says otherwise.

Those who descended from the Israelites have a Jewish ancestory. This is even more prominent with Jews as somehow they have maintained their ethnic identity.

Perhaps the main contributing factor to these Israelites maintaining their ethnic identity is that they have been persecuted throughout history by antisemitic people like you. That type of racism, while evil, also generates a unity within the persecuted ethnic group. It preserves a national identity.

Simpy repeating your fallacious notions doesn't make them any more true. Start another thread if you want to debate Zionism with me. But look out, I cite evidence.

 

[JonC]

Simpy repeating your fallacious notions doesn't make them any more true. Start another thread if you want to debate Zionism with me. But look out, I cite evidence.

Although I believe it correct, I am not debating Zionism.

The fact is that the Jews today are ethnic Jews (they are the descendants of the tribes of Israel). That ancestory is beyond question (although Muslims certainly question it in propaganda).

Ziononism refers to the right of these Israelites (ethnic) to exist as a nation in the land of their ancestors.

I have no issue with Zionism. I also have no issue with Native Americans constituting their respective nations on tribal land (although I do question some tax issues).


But this thread concerns whether the descendants of the Israeli tribes have the right to call themselves Jews.

Since they maintained their cultural and ethnic identity in exile I believe they do.

You can argue that there are no Jews, no Navajos, no Cherokees, etc. today but it is a rather stupid argument.

With Jews it is even more stupid as they maintained more of an ethnic identity than Native Americans (the Jews today are typically at least 30% ethnic Jews while being 10% Native American is usually the standard to identify as such).


Your argument, no matter how you try to frame it, is pure antisemitism and a denial of fact based on your own racist ideologies. You do not want something to be true so you pretend it is not.


Now, Zionism (whether these people have a right to exist as a self-governing and independent nation) is a different issue. It is also an issue of the past because the nation of Israel does exist.

There is a nation where the descendants of the tribes of Israel once again exists as a self-governing country in the land that belonged to their ancestors.

You do not have to like it. You can say Paul lied when he ssid he was a Jew (because he was also a Christian). You can gravitate to antisemitic conspiracy theories and propaganda. But you can do absolutely nothing about it.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

This is from a point being made here, that Jewish believers are still Jews, even though they're Christians, because it's an ethnic thing. They are the physical descendants of Abraham, and still get a slice of real estate in the Middle East.

Let's break that down.

Esau was just as much of Abraham as was Jacob. Why aren't the Edomites referred to as Jews, or heirs to the promises?

Ruth didn't have a drop of Abraham's blood in her. Was she a Jew? An heir to the promises?

The mixed multitude that went out from Egypt with the children of Israel received the law at Sinai. All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" Were all the people Jews? Heirs to the promises?

The stranger that was circumcised to celebrate the Passover...like any native-born Israelite, Exodus 12:48 NLT. Was he a Jew? Was he an heir to the promises?

Was Sammy Davis Jr. a Jew? Would he have been entitled to some real estate in the Middle East? What about Ivanka Trump? Is Israel™ now her "homeland"?

What is a Jew?

My simple take:
In Scripture, “Jew” is not a racial category. It is a covenant identity rooted in Jacob, open to those who join themselves to the God of Israel, and not guaranteed to every physical descendant of Abraham.

Esau was Abraham’s grandson, but he was not Israel. Ruth had no Abrahamic blood, yet she became part of Israel. The mixed multitude at Sinai became part of Israel. The circumcised stranger in Exodus 12 was treated as native born. Covenant, not genetics, defined belonging.

A Jew in the biblical sense is a member of the covenant people descended from Jacob, with room for those who were grafted in. That is why Jewish believers in Christ remain Jews. They are the natural branches, the remnant according to grace. FWIW.

 

[JonC]

A Jew in the biblical sense is a member of the covenant people descended from Jacob . . .

I agree.

But this (above) is ethnic. We have to remember that Judiasm does not acknowledge the New Testament as Scripture. As a secular nation I believe we can only apply ethnic categories.

The Jews living in Israel ARE descended from Jacob. Now, many have a mixed heritage as they were driven abroad by persecution. But they still are physical descendents of Jacob.



I believe that secular Israel itself is a visual demonstration of God's power. There is no other way to account for a people maintaining their ethnic identity and sense of nationalism for over 2000 years without existing as a nation. It is actually amazing.

But at the same time it is sad. They are predominantly lost people, no different from any other religion that fails to reciece by faith the Propitiation God has set forth (Christ). They are searching for a Messiah that has already come.

 

[Anthony Pritchard]

I agree.

But this (above) is ethnic. We have to remember that Judiasm does not acknowledge the New Testament as Scripture. As a secular nation I believe we can only apply ethnic categories.

The Jews living in Israel ARE descended from Jacob. Now, many have a mixed heritage as they were driven abroad by persecution. But they still are physical descendents of Jacob.



I believe that secular Israel itself is a visual demonstration of God's power. There is no other way to account for a people maintaining their ethnic identity and sense of nationalism for over 2000 years without existing as a nation. It is actually amazing.

But at the same time it is sad. They are predominantly lost people, no different from any other religion that fails to reciece by faith the Propitiation God has set forth (Christ). They are searching for a Messiah that has already come.

"They are searching for a Messiah that has already come." Indeed.