1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is Grace Irresistible?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by tyndale1946, Feb 7, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    [QUOTE="revmwc,

    Very clear God has called us, elected us and given us the Spiritual Gifts we need because He knew everything about us beforehand. While the decision to trust Him is resistible, He knows who will answer the call and who will resist and therefore election and our office for Him are Predestined.[/QUOTE]

    No.....He has determined and ordained a multitude to have eternal life. It is not because He knows what we would do, because we all rebelled against Him.
     
    #61 Iconoclast, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,964
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No.....He has determined and ordained a multitude to have eternal life. It is not because He knows what we would do, because we all rebelled against Him.[/QUOTE]

    I agree... Before he laid the foundation of the world he made an Election... According to his own will purpose and grace!... He knows who will answer the call and who will resist and therefore election and our office for Him are Predestined?... No that is not election... That is selection... Man based not God based!... Brother Glen[/QUOTE]
     
    #62 tyndale1946, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    He came close to speaking truth, then at the end....they always twist it to make man in control rather than God.
    I am thinking this is rebellion.They agree up and down the line, then when push comes to shove....they turn away....CautiousCautiousCautious
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Feb 10, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,500
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Faith:
    Baptist
    KJV follows the literal rendering. Young's Literal Translation:

    2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; Heb 12 YLT

    3 for what, if certain were faithless? shall their faithlessness the faithfulness of god make useless?
    22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference, Ro 3 YLT

    16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.`
    20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; Gal 2 YLT

    22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing. Gal 3 YLT

    9 not having my righteousness, which is of law, but that which is through faith of Christ -- the righteousness that is of God by the faith, Phil 3 YLT

    12 Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.` Rev 14 YLT

    8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2 YLT
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    166
    Brother InTheLight,

    There are no "exceptions" as everyone is born again in the same manner, "8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8).
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes Received:
    353
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is Grace Irresistible?

    Grace Kelly might have been.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Groan...
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    10,964
    Likes Received:
    2,380
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I never thought I would have to use the dumb button but this answer is the exception!... Brother Gleno_Oo_Oo_O
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,500
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Faith:
    Baptist
    YLT again:

    .....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow,....thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:7,8
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86


    Again Jeremiah 1:5 We see The Lord tell Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

    God knew him what did he know about Jeremiah?


    The Hebrew word yada which means according to "Strongs" to perceive and see find out and discern, God knew Jeremiah he had perception of him before he was formed in the womb. We see Calvin's commentary on this passage, "Jeremiah then was not actually sanctified in the womb, but set apart according to God’s predestination and hidden purpose; that is, God chose him then to be a Prophet. It may be asked, whether he was not chosen before the creation of the world? To this it may be readily answered, that he was indeed foreknown by God before the world was made;


    John Gill "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; in which sense the Lord knows them that are his, as he does not others, and predestinates them unto eternal life; and which is not only before their formation in the womb, but before the foundation of the world, even from all eternity. The forming of the human foetus is God's act, and a curious piece of workmanship it is"


    Ironside states this "All was foreseen long, long before its actual occurrence; everything was provided for. Satan, sin, and their attendant evils, have in no wise interfered with His purpose, "who worketh all things according to the counsel of His own will." (Ephesians 1:11)"


    God knew Jeremiah, knew all about him before he was formed in the womb. Just as He knew you and me before we were formed and because of his knowing us beforehand that is by His foreknowledge, His Omniscience, He knew everything and nothing about our lives surprises Him, nothing about our choices Surprises Him, for He knew exactly what was and for that matter He knows exactly what is going to happen before it occurred or occurs. That is His Omnsceince and His knowing us beforehand. He already knows the outcome of every situation before it occurs. Calvin states it, Gill too as well as Ironside. Strongs show's it as the perception of God, "I perceived thee before I formed thee in the Womb". Now what does the word foreknow mean=to have previous knowledge of, know beforehand especially by paranormal [merriam webster states paranormal] ([revmwc] Spiritual) means or revelation. The word is very clear God knew everything about Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb. To me that indicates an Omniscient (all knowing) God of which I serve, knew ALL about Jeremiah as well as us and based on that foreknowledge He did predestinate us to be conformed to the image of His dear son, He did predestinated Jeremiah to be a prophet to the nation based upon knowing ALL about Jeremiah beforehand, all by His Sovereignty.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A few thoughts on the 'faith of Christ.' It seems to be being suggested that this refers to the personal faith of our Lord which saves us.
    It is the question of a subjective or an objective genitive. Consider:
    'The fear of God.' Is it God who fears? Or is it our fear towards, or in respect of, God? 'The love of money.' Is it the money that loves? Or is it our love towards, or in respect of, money?
    So 'Faith of Christ.' is it Christ who has the faith? Or is it our faith towards or in respect of Christ? The context decides.

    Consider Galatians 2:16, quoted above by Kyredneck. The 'faith of Christ' is being contrasted with the 'works of the law.' Is it the law that works? Or is it our work in respect of the law? Surely the latter. It seems most unlikely to me that Paul would be mixing objective and subjective genitives twice in the same sentence. Therefore just as the 'works of the law' refer to our work in respect of the law, so 'faith of Christ' refers to our faith in respect of Christ, and the modern translations are correct to render it as 'faith in Christ.'
     
    #71 Martin Marprelate, Feb 11, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    166
    Brother Martin,

    If you are correct, what do you think was the distinguishing factor that made the translators of the KJV render it "faith in Christ" in such verses as Colossians 1:4, "4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints," but "faith of Christ" in other verses throughout the Bible such as Romans 3:22, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference"?
     
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,490
    Faith:
    Baptist
    πιστεως, translated "faith of" is a genative singular. A genative case noun in Greek indicates a possessive, or the case of "belonging to." However, a genative in Greek can also indicate origin or separation, "from" something. In this case the most literal translation would be "the faith (coming) from Christ." :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist

    [​IMG]
     
  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, you have redefined true biblical foreknowledge. It is not merely God looking through the corridors of time and seeing who had faith, who would be willing to do 'this or that', but His foreknowledge is based upon that which He has decreed to come to pass. You have taken foreknowledge and reduced it down to mental assent.

    God knows everybody via creation, via procreation of man and woman, but only foreknows His via regeneration of the Spirit. For God to 'know' someone as a covenant child is to know them intimately. Just like Adam knew Eve and she conceived through this knowing. That is why Jesus will say to the goats on the left "depart from Me, for I never 'knew' you." It wasn't that Jesus didn't know their existence, as He knows us all, all mankind, but didn't 'know' the goats via redemption.
     
    #75 SovereignGrace, Feb 12, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2016
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,500
    Likes Received:
    2,880
    Faith:
    Baptist
    2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith -- Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him -- did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down; Heb 12 YLT

    8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, Eph 2 YLT
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    So Calvin stating it along with the others I have are incorrect about foreknowledge. God knows us all intimately right down to the day of our birth as well as the day we will die and He has known it all since eternity past
     
Loading...