The Trail Of Blood

Again, even if it were true, who cares? Is your faith tied to geneologies? Does being tied to a NT church before Reformation make you special? Are you a special class of sinner?

Baptist bride? The Bride of Christ are all Baptists? Which type? Does that include the 65% of the SBC church rolls that do not attend with any regularity? Revelation speaks of a saved group of folks too numerous to count from everywhere. It seems to me it is quite easy to count faithful Baptists, sometimes on one's fingers.

Whoever invented Baptist bride was either blindly arrogant or smoking the wacky tobacky.

 

I am not arguing with your general stance, but one point you made got me wondering. I don't remember much of the little Latin I learned at school, but doesn't "apud opera" mean something like "among the works"? In that case, it might be, not the title of a work, but a Latin phrase used in referencing a quote, rather like "op.cit."?

 

Thanks, Dr Bob, for making that clear. I am embarrassed that my memory of schoolboy Latin is clearly even less than the little I claimed it to be. :tear:

 

Sorry - I seem to have sent the same post twice!

 

love it! love it!
Ask a group of Baptists what color the sky is and there will be a fight.
Thought the thread between modern Baptists and Ana Baptists is "soft" it is of great value to know what they stood for. I also was asked to read this for a Baptist distinctives class as well as "Baptists in History" by Dr. Sitler. I have always tried to be open minded, so any time I heard any body teaching on this subject (even outside "Baptist" circles) I tried to pay close attention, and have never been able to gleen anything that would suggest that it is anything but correct in its most basic concept. I'm not a Baptist Brider no matter what you think. If there is a better commentary on Baptist History I would be most interested in reading it. Please post a list.

Oh I'll be waiting on the stones:tonofbricks:

 

I won't post a list but virtually any commentary is better than the Trail of Blood. I recommend Bill Brackney's "A Genetic History of Baptist Thought" as a good survey of the field. Of course, his origins will start in seventeenth-century England leaving the influence of continental Anabaptists to be a rather open question on the founders of the General and Particular Baptists. There have been books published specifically on refuting the Trail of Blood, like McGoldrick's, and one can consult them with an open mind. McGoldrick is not a great historian, but he has bothered to actually answer the view which most Baptist historians have ignored.

I have never found anyone without a theological ax to grind on baptism to validate most anything from the Trail of Blood inside or outside of Baptist circles.

BJ

 

Thank you, and though you may find that my postings may be antaganistic in some areas I genuinely Love the Lord and am usually just acting up for the sake of a laugh. However the Bible College that I attended though very strong on practical necessities had not yet developed a really strong History or geography department. so I am very interested in these two areas although when I run up on someone with "an ax to grind" I normally pass them of, as disgruntled and having an adgenda neither of which is very apealing to me, somehow I still think that not only can we love each other beyond our differences but are commanded to do so.

Ok, I'll be waiting for the stones:tonofbricks:

 

I got a better place you can stick it!
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Alright!!
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Get your mind out of the gutter!
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It is (fortunately) in paperback, and not a large pamphlet.

Therefore, stick it in the middle of The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop.

Then stick the whole thing in the bad part of the "Fiction" section of your library.

Seems like about the right place for both! :thumbs:

Ed

 

Are you trying to say that it would make a good book mark? I'm not sure that I understand.

 

I only took one semester of Baptist History on my way to an education degree, and that an American Baptist history; but I did read ToB, and I am familiar with the BAPTIST acrostic and its various forms. I think you could say that while none of these are particular to only Baptists, putting all of them together (at least in today's world) will give you a Baptist church. It is not that each characteristic is unique among all denominations, but that combining them into one that produces a distincly Baptist congregation...

 

Whether Cardinal Hosius was quoted correctly or not is not terribly germane to the discussion. It would not be the first time the Holy See manipulated the record to cover-up. They have done it in recent times as well. Since when are Holy See clones proficient at anything except their own rhetoric? Have we forgotten that the father of all lies is still alive and well on planet earth?

The main point of TOB is that the majority of Christendom was started by a man or woman going back to the 4th century with the Emperor of Rome setting up an apostate church which he proceeded to paganize. That church is still pagan and so are all of her daughters--started by defrocked Roman priests. We must also consider Henry VIII and his religious progeny. Then there is Joseph Smith Jr. There are others: Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Glover Patterson Eddy, Judge Rutherford, etal.

True Baptists are not a denomination. They are not Protestant. They did not come out of Rome. True Baptistic faith and practice has been in every generation since the first church founded by Jesus on the shores of Galilee nearly 2000 years ago. They have not always been called Baptists--actually a term of derision. She is the Bride. She has been assailed by Satan. Hence the Trail of Blood.

The Lord has preserved her, just as He promised. She still has oil in her lamp, waiting for the Bridegroom.

Bro. Carroll was a good preacher, IMHO.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

:thumbs:Right on.

 

Yer' both wrong, ya' evil heret...!
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Uh, what was the question, again?? :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

FTR, I agree with much of what you say here. Unfortunately, this still "begs the question".

The problem here, is that unfortunately, one who was apparently otherwise a good preacher, Baptist leader both in Texas, and the Southern Baptist Convention, and educator [James M. Carroll did serve as the President three schools and was instrumental in the founding of two of them, first the San Marcos Baptist Academy; and both Howard Payne College, and Oklahoma Baptist University. (OBU , which Dr. Carroll was the leader in the founding, was and is a rarety, in that it has been a unversity from Day 1.)] seems to have gotten hold of some bad information, and without properly checking it out, used it in some lectures. (Anyone here ever got hold of bad imformation, and used it? I know I have, and then had to correct it later, and even if damage had already been done, I could not completely undo it, sometimes.)

That bad info, coupled with his "Landmarkist" views, and subjected to the widespread distrust of Roman Catholics that many (I include myself among these, to a good degree.) hold, and added to the eschatological identification of many, in that day, of 'Rome' as the Anti-Christ, provided an easy path to some of his conclusions.

'The booklet was actually compiled, probably not by Dr. Carroll, but by some friends and associates (notably Dr. Clarence Walker of Lexingrton, KY), as a memoriaum, from six lectures he had previously given, and in the year of his death, collected, deited, and published post-humously, as Dr. Carroll died on Jan. 10, 1931. The booklet has always been dated 1931, and published by, with the copyright owned by the Ashland Avenue Baptist Church (and Lexington Baptist College), in Lexington, where Dr. Walker was pastor (and President) for more than 50 years.

(FTR, I met the President of LBC, at that time, Dr. Ross Range, briefly, and knew and conversed with Dean Dr. Roscoe Brong, several times, and respected both, even if I did not agree on every singular particular, and considered attempting a graduate degree at LBC, but that opportunity did not present itself, due to the illness and death of my father, and there was no way to accomplish it without being able to attend full-time, which I could not do (I'm a full-time farmer.), even though, the school was located within about 40 miles of my home.)

Dr. Carroll did apparently research this, granted. But many, who have done far more research on the subjects of this book, have concluded that, unfortunately, there are too many 'speculations' included, and the conclusions are not supportable by the evidence, thus the judgement, in Biblical terms, is "TEKEL" - "weighed in the balances and found lacking".

I will grant that I have not done anywhere near as much research into this as have some others, but I have done some. And as one who has served as the foreman of multiple juries (Incidentally, I have been chosen, by my peers, as the foreman for every jury on which I have ever served.), both criminal and civil, I would have to agree with Dr. Bob (in post #21), and further, I agree with the above judgment.

Ed