Ordo Salutis

Rippon, Muslims have faith. They have so great a faith in Allah that they are willling to commit suicide while engaging in terrorist acts in order to go to heaven. They believe this with their whole being. But because their faith is misplaced, they will not go to heaven, but to hell. They have believed in vain. Now if they had placed their belief in Christ and were willing to die for Him, they would have been saved.
The object of their faith is why they are condemned.

 

Of course it is referencing believers because they have already believed, not that they alone 'can' believe.

 

Exactly !! :thumbs: Couldn't have said better nor shorter myself.

And scripture backs you up 1000% on this. Those who reject Christ are damned and they are only damned 'after' they reject Him. How did they reject Him? By not believing or placing their faith in Him.

 

I don't want this to get lost in the thread so I will post it again now, as it was a discussion regarding the OP earlier on.

They are 'almost' simultaneous and unlike the Reformed belief I do not think it is a 'logical' order at all but a specific order that happens at the same moment in time. I say it is not a 'logical' order but a spelled out specific order based primarily upon the evidence of what I was asking you about regeneration (and all it entails) preceding faith (which is supposedly a part of that list). Let me show you what I am talking about.

You state that being regenerate precedes faith and that in this regenerating man is/has been given:
1. a new nature (old things are passed away behold all things have become new - IOW - you are no longer what you were);
2. the Holy Spirit indwells them;
3. their relationship to God has been reconciled (justified);
4. they have been sanctified unto God;
4. they are now IN Christ (thus alive);
5. and are given faith and repentence to be used for salvation.

This is the position you have declared so far (as far I understand you).

Now here is the problem with what you have stated if all the above are imparted at regeneration (which includes faith) that precedes the excersizing of one's faith.
None of the above, biblically, are imparted to man except 'by faith'.
as I have shown here:

It is not before faith is excersized that these are imparted to us (your view of regeneration) but 'after' we have believed.

Therefore if all of the above happened 'at' the regeneration, which includes the giving of faith (thus regen preceding faith), then we have a conflict with scripture which states the exact opposite. I do agree that all you have stated happen 'at' the regeneration (aside from faith). But scripturally if one holds that regeneration entails the above, regeneration can not precede faith for it is by faith all of the above is imparted to man. Then you must conclude (as I see it) that faith precedes regeneration.

In conclusion:
The verses I gave above show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is first excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms (regeneration and salvation) are synonymos with the phrase - born-again (or the New Birth - you are no more what you were).

 

The only ones who can believe are the ones to whom He gives saving faith.These are the Elect.

 

Do you deny the many Scriptures which state that there are those who are foreordained to eternal condemnation?

 

Salvation is not regeneration.Salvation includes regeneration but the terms are not equivalent.

Salvation is not imputed to us -- Christ's Righteousness is.

 

No, I believe scripture which states:

And many, many others like John 3:36 and so forth.

Yes, they were ordained to eternal condemnation 'because' they would not believe the truth. Thus you have verses in scripture which state "for this cause" or "for this reason" that God 'gave them over" - That cause was not believing the truths God had revealed to them.

 

Salvation is a more general term where as regeneration is more specific as to what is/has transpired.

But yes, Salvation and regeneration (born-again) are used in scripture synonymously regarding the same event. :thumbs:

 

As I have stated before, that is your 'opinion' of what scripture says. Though I do agree that only the elect has excersized faith in the one who saves - thus saving faith.

 

Allan said "No". He doesn't believe those Scriptures!

 

No, you need to RE-READ what I wrote.

I don't believe your twisted interpretation regarding those verses.

I believe scripture without question, I just don't hold to some of those Hyper-tendencies you do.


EDITTED IN: After the same manner;
I take it that you don't believe those verses which state that those men were damned because they would not believe the truth?

IOW - They 'were not yet' damned until after they rejected the truth. - and remember this verse I quoted is about those who will (without question) follow the Anti-christ.
So either they were already damned and that is why they could not believe or we go with scripture which says they are damned after they reject the truth.

The fact that God knows all things and knows what they will be (future) does not preclude the fact of why God knowingly set them in that catagory of the damned... because they would not believe the truth.

 

No,apparently you do not believe the Scriptures.Further,I do not hold to hyper tendencies.But,as an Arminian I suppose you regard mainstream Calvinism as Hyper-Calvinism.

 

Who said anything about hyper-calvinism.. though you could think I was implying it, I was actaully meaning hyper as in beyond the text. I appologize if you took it the other way because in truth that was not my actual intent in using the word but can understand why you thought it.

Yes I believe scripture absolutely, I reject however what I believe men are saying about the scripture instead of what the scripture is actaully saying.

 

Whatever gave you that idea Rippon?Just because I said hyper-tendencies you jump to conclusions.( Could the case be that your remark was not so innocent as you say?Could it be that you have said it several times before toward me indicating that I have Hyper-Calvinistic tendencies?Naw,that couldn't be.That would mean that you have lied.)



Yes I believe scripture absolutely, I reject however what I believe men are saying about the scripture instead of what the scripture is actaully saying.[/quote]

And welcome to your brand of theology.The kind that says you are always true to the Word of God.Everyone else who approaches texts in a different manner than you are in the wrong.Could it possibly be the case that men from your side (even you!) might be twisting the Scriptures a bit on occasion?You and yours may be sincere;but still mistaken about key passages.

 

You can either take what I said as the truth and accept the appology or not. It isn't my problem anymore but yours.

However you are breaking BB rules by me of being a liar even after telling you the truth.

Secondly, you are accusing me of saying I have repeatedly (several times) accused you of hyper-calvinistic tendencies. Please show your proof of this or appologize.

Just so you know - I did a check of every time I used the words 'tendencies' and 'hyper' and it revealed that I have never stated that 'you' have hyper-Calvinistic 'tendencies' . Not once, ever. The closest thing that can compare is in the Hyper-Calvinist thread of mine, I was stating that those who hold to some of the views of those listed there-in, though not 100% hyper, do have hyper tendencies and related that fact about 4 or 5 times.

 

Hi TC;
Thankyou for your input.

Quite the opposite, it says it isn't our faith or anything we do. It says the whole process is a free gift from faith to Salvation.
MB

 

You eisegeted too much into a simple phrase, MB. It says nothing of "the whole process" being a free gift, but salvation by grace through faith as being the gift.

 

ReformedBaptist,

I don't want this post to disappear since it corrisponds the earlier conversation we were having regarding the OP...

Here is my last post concerning it:


Thanks.

 

LOL! I know you worked so hard for your Salvation.:laugh:
You can believe you are your own co-redeemer if you want that's up to you. I've shown that Salvation is all of God. I can't make you believe it. You can now boast about your self all you want to. All I've said about Eph 2:8-9 is exactly what it says.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

All three of things are a gift of God. He didn't have to show favor which is grace. He didn't have to give us the gospel by which we receive faith in hearing it preached. He also doesn't have to give us Salvation. I know this is true because it isn't of my self as the verse says.
It wasn't because I added anything.
In;
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Againg we are given to believe in Him. Given suggest we received a gift to believe. Belief in Christ is given. You didn't dream it up on your own.
MB