Salvation Question....

Being in agreement is not a bad thing after all. :thumbs:

 

No matter where one adds baptism in gospel message so as to identify it as a completion of/to salvation, theyare presenting a corrupted gospel. The problem here is that baptism is one of the essentials if you say it completes a persons salvation. Scripture says they shall know the 'truth' and the 'truth' shall set them free. The 'Truth' is not only Christ but also the message OF Christ. Thus the message must accurately portray Christ and His salvation else it is a lie making Him a liar.

Most groups who speak of baptism completing salvation do not speak of the gospel of salvation without bringing baptism into the gospel message so as to make it apart of that which saves. Baptism does not save nor is it the vehicle or means OF salvation. That is faith and it is faith alone. To add my baptism to it says I am placing my trust in my work (baptism).

There is no amount of rephrasing you can do that will make it correct when the issue at hand is 'baptism completes salvation'.
It doesn't, won't, and never will.

 

Amen brother.

 

I read most of the posts and found them disappointing as they attempted to address the OP with the exception of "canadyjd" and "Jim".

Who is the author of our salvation? God.

Who is the finisher of our salvation? God

Salvation from start to finish is the work of the Sovereign God.

God the Father chose certain persons to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. He, God the Father, has made us accepted in the beloved, Jesus Christ. We did not choose ourselves to be saved before the foundation of the world. God did. We did not make ourselves accepted in the beloved. God did.

Ephesians 1:2-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Jesus Christ paid the penalty for those whom God the Father had chosen to salvation in Him.

Ephesians 1:7-12
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The Holy Spirit applies the finished work of Jesus Christ to those whom God the Father chose to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:1-10
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

While we were still dead in sin [spiritually dead] God the Holy Spirit made us alive and subsequently gave us the faith to believe that Jesus Christ indeed did pay the penalty for our sin.

The Apostle Paul is not the only one who teaches that only those chosen by God are saved. We read the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of John:

John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

"Born again" or "born from above" is the work of the Holy Spirit as discussed in Ephesians 2: 1-10 above. We are dead in sin and must be made alive or born from above.

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

It is the Triune God alone who saves. It is true that baptism adds nothing to that salvation other than it is an ordinance of the Church and an act of obedience toward God. It is also true that a false belief in the necessity of Baptism cannot take away or make void the work that the Triune God has done in the salvation of one of His chosen ones.

 

No one has said God isn't the one who saves but He does not save apart from faith and that 'faith' must be in the right place and person. Secondly and MOST importantly God has not saved us apart from His chosen means. Yes, we were chosen However the truth is God bring us to Him through the gospel message and faith.

In your view OldReg, you have even the Mormons and JW's and any other Cult out there being saved because they believe in Jesus and present much of the same basic things we do when they preach about being saved. Jesus died, was buried, rose again and all this for because we were sinners.

If your above were true then there is no problem with saying a person needs to be circumcised in order to 'complete their salvation', or doing good deeds, or any other addition we would like to add. It is astonishing that some will make the claim "Gods saves" but that the means has no bearing this. God does not save a person through a false gospel just as He will the truth or Paul would not have put up such a fight for the simplicity and truth of the message of salvation. The main flaw in such a theory is you will not find argument anywhere in the whole of scripture that God saves no matter the means.

It is the truth that sets one free, and it is the truth through which we are saved.


But just in case I'm wrong on this please show scripture which gives credence to your view that God saves even through a distorted gospel message, or even that God saves and the means through which He ordained salvation to be known is not necessary in His saving of His chosen ones.


NO man is saved apart from the gospel, which is the same as saying no one is set free apart from the truth.
It is the truth through which we believe and be saved.

 

So, you maintain that if the gospel presentation in any way varies from the essentials (undefined by you at this point), Holy Spirit is prevented from bringing a person to salvation.

I hold to the doctrine of the "crooked stick".

That is, "God can hit straight with a crooked stick". Even if we mess it up, God is still able to bring people to repentance and faith and work out the finer points of theology as they mature in their faith.

peace to youraying:

 

You apparently do not understand Scripture. The passage I quoted from Ephesians states that while we were dead in sin [that is spiritually dead] God made us alive. He then gave us the faith to believe in Jesus Christ.

Where does Scripture say that faith must be in the right place? Just what does that mean?

Since I believe in election I do not doubt that there are Mormons, JWs, Roman Catholics, Greek or Russian Orthodox, Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, even dispensationalists who are saved by the grace of God. Their belief systems may be screwed up but hopefully some will arrive at the truth. In fact I know some who have. In any event God will save those He chose to salvation before the foundation of the world. And that is a fact.

I could make the argument that anyone who believes in losing ones salvation believes in works salvation and is therefore not able to be saved or negates the work of the Triune God in salvation. But it would be nonsensensical as your argument is.

You are deliberately twisting what I said. I said at the beginning of my post that God is the author and finisher of our salvation. I said at the end of my post: It is the Triune God alone who saves. It is true that baptism adds nothing to that salvation other than it is an ordinance of the Church and an act of obedience toward God. It is also true that a false belief in the necessity of Baptism cannot take away or make void the work that the Triune God has done in the salvation of one of His chosen ones.

False. It is by the grace of God that we are saved. Apparently you believe that no one can be saved unless they are fully versed in Scripture but I dare say that you have baptised many children [assuming you are a pastor] who have only learned to parrot what their parents have told them.

Again you deliberately distort my words. I never stated that God saves through a distorted gospel message. I said that salvation is from beginning to end the work of the Triune God. If one is dead in sin the Gospel means nothing to him. As Paul said in 1Corinthisns 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You might consider the following Scripture in response to your "distorted Gospel" remark:

Philippians 1:13-21
13. So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;
14. And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15. Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16. The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17. But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18. What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
19. For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20. According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

It depends on what you mean by the Gospel. I agree with Paul who said:

Romans 1: 16, 17
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

But to reiterate my final statement above with some additions [underlined] for your benefit:

It is the Triune God alone who saves. It is true that baptism or any other work adds nothing to that salvation other than it is an ordinance of the Church and/or an act of obedience toward God. It is also true that a false belief in the necessity of Baptism or any other work cannot take away or make void the work that the Triune God has done in the salvation of one of His chosen ones.

 

Yes, but there is a distinction between the view of the 'crooked stick' and a false gospel.
If your crooked stick theory was true, why was Paul so against corrupting the gospel message turning salvation from grace to works. You seem to have no issue with a corrupt gospel but he most certainly did and he did not consider it the 'finer points of theology'.

 

Can help but continue with Ad-homs huh?

It says nothing of the kind. Yes He made us alive while being dead in our trespasses and sins (that is called salvation/born again). But no where in the text does it ever state THEN He gave us faith to believe.

What it says is that we are saved by His grace and that salvation is through faith.
IOW - God didn't save you then give you faith. It was by grace through faith that we are saved.

It means that faith in the wrong thing will not save.
Faith in Budda will not save.
Faith in good works will not save.
Faith in my baptism will not save.
Only faith in Christ Jesus work will save me.
Thus faith must be properly placed.

There is no salvation apart from faith. Scripture says believe and be saved. Not be saved and believe. Yes we are saved by grace but salvation is through faith and that faith is specifically placed in CHrist alone and nothing else. To add something else to say we are saved by Christ AND .... which is no different than saying Jesus and Mary saved me.

Then I would seriously suggest more study of word of God because what you just espoused is unbiblical. JW's, Mormons, and others who deny the truth and have made up their own god and gospel will die in their unbelief.

Those coming out have believed the truth otherwise they would still be in unbelief and die in their sins. Of course God saves His chosen, no doubt! But He will not save them apart from the gospel and faith.

The whole of the above is summed up on the gospel message and why some are not yet saved. They have not yet believed the gospel.

Yet God does not save apart from means as shown above. He does not save and then they believe nor does He save even while they die in unbelief of the gospel truth (such as JW's, Mormons, ect..).

True! By grace THROUGH faith.

Apparently you like to make up things as you go.
I said they are to believe the gospel and that Christ alone saves us by His grace through faith. Not of works.!.

I dare say you speak quite ignorantly though quite arrogantly.

In you above you insinutate that God saves some without them without them ever believing the truth but still staying and believing in a false Christ and a false gospel. Do you retract that?

That is your view. The fact the passage is talking about the natural man of himself never being able to know spiritual truth is not the same as God revealing it to him.

I did, and it still stands.
What you gave has no bearing on what I said.

If you believe that then you can not maintain that those in the JW's and Mormons who maintain their view will be saved. It is a false gospel most specifically because it is a false christ they preach.

 

Care to comment on Mark 16:16 as Christ said:

"He that believeth AND is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned." ?

Also, care to comment on Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." ?

I am not Church of Christ, Assembly of God, etc. I am Baptist.

Many arguement that some saying we must be saved by believe and also baptized both go together for obedience. While, some saying, we are saved by the faith and believed in Christ only without have baptize. Also, they argue that, we are saved by the faith only, not of any good works like Eph. 2:8,9.

Let you know that I am no longer myself believe in eternal security salvation like as 'Once Saved Always Saved'(OSAS). I disagreed with unconditional security salvation doctrine since in year 2002.

I realized that the Bible shows us there are lot of conditional salvation in verses, that we are responsiblity to obey with our faith throughout our life till death.

I believe Mark 16:15-16 clearly telling us that we are responsible to have eternal life by believing in Jesus also to obey by baptize to follow Christ.

What about the Thief on the cross? Understand, that time was the great commission(Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16, Acts 1:8) was not yet taken place till when AFTER Christ's resurrection.

The gospel is all about Christ's suffering, death, buried, and resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:3,4.

Once the disciples realized and understood of Christ's plan after His resurrection as what the all gospel is talking about. Then, Christ gave the great commission to them to preaching the gospel of salvation to the world.

I believe baptism is also part of salvation. If without have baptize, cannot have the part of salvation.

I realize that baptize is necessary for salvation because of OBEDIENCE and follow Christ.

Christ's point was in Matt. 19:16-26, if anyone want to have eternal life, then have to give up our own life, and come to Christ and to follow him. Follow always come with obedience. Therefore, being to be baptized always come with obedience. Being to be baptized is NOT hard to get saved. Just do it. Like as Nike's famous advertisment says, "Just do it".

Why argue? Just have faith in Christ as what He saying, believing on him, and also to be baptized to follow Christ then will have eternal life. Baptize is a beginning of salvation life.

Understand, being baptized at once is not actual automatically saved at once for good throughout our life till death. It is the first step of obedience of salvation at the beginning.

Once when after we believe in Christ, repent of our sins, baptized in Christ, then later when we sinning and backslidding from the Lord. Should we have to be baptized again? NO! Only thing we can do is repent and restoration with our relationship like Luke 15:11-32 that a son was fall away from his father, he was lost and dead, when he returns to his father, he is found and live again which speaking of our spiritual restoration.

Onced believed, onced baptized, is not the final automatic of salvation, it is the beginning of the first step of our salvation like as we juat get enter into the gate of the narrow road toward the final line(Matt. 7:13-14).

This post is already long. I better make another post to continued discuss on it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

When we understand that God has only one way of saving sinners, the issue of baptism as part of this saving plan will quickly go away.

God saves sinners through faith, nothing more, nothing less. Just ask Abraham, the father of those who would come to faith (Rom 4:9-11).

 

When anyone who is backslidding or fall away from the Lord, can still have chance to repent of sins while still alive(physical) in the midst of the road.

Or otherwise, if anyone who was onced believed, onced repented, onced accept Christ, onced baptized, did serve the Lord in the early stage. But, afterward, stopped serve the Lord, turn away from the Lord, sinning life for long time. If anyone who is continue sinning all the way to death(physical) without repentance. Then, that person cannot enter into eternal life at the end- Matt. 22:10; & Matt. 24:13.

In Ezekiel 18:24 warns:

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trepass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he DIE."

This verse tells us, when a righteous person turning away from the original state(beginning of the endure faith), and continue doing evil ways, if a righteous person who did turn away from the Lord, and continue sinning all the way to death(physical), the a righteous person would be remain DIE(spiritually death).

Ezek. 18:24 speaks very clear that it is conditional with warning.

This verse is not only focus on the Old Testament saints, even apply to all ages of every individual saints.

In James 1:15-16 warn,

"Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, WHEN IT IS FINISHED(AT DEATH-PHYSICAL), bringeth forth DEATH(spiritually death separate from God). DO NOT ERR, MY BELOEVED BRETHREN."

This passage warns us, if anyone who continue sinning all the way to the end("when it is finished") at the death(physical) that means, person's sinning shall lead toward DEATH-spiritually(6:23-"for the wages of sin is DEATH") which speaking of in the lake of fire-Rev. 20:14.

James 1:16 is very clearly speaking toward us as CHRISTIANS, not unsaved people!

That why I disagree with OSAS doctrine, because I can easy see lot of verses in Bible that mentioned of conditionals that we must take with our responsible for to respond back God with our faith, and our life.

Conclusion:

Being once believed, once repented, once accepted, once baptized, these are not the final automatically eternal life. These are beginning of our salvation life, as we just enter into the narrow road(Matt. 7:13-14), while we are ON the narrow road, that means we must endure all the way to the end(Matt. 10:22; & Matt. 24:13) THEN, we shall be saved(speaking of overcame-victory) have eternal life.

Or, if we stopped on the middle of the road, and turn away, and remain in sinning life, never return back to God again, by the time we die(physical) without repent, then our spiritual shall bring forth to DEATH (Ezek. 18:24; Romans 6:23; & James 1:15) which speak of "second death" - in the lake of fire- Rev. 20:14.

Rev. 2:10-11 tell us very clear, it say:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR(speak of warning) what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

This passage telling us that, we must be faithful throughout our lifetime till we die(physical), while we facing tests, trials, persecutions, tribulations, etc. We must not give up or quit in the midst of our trial time, we must endure it all the way to the end at our death. If we overcome(victory over) them-world, devil, flesh. and of course, sins at our death(physical). Then, the second death(lake of fire) will not take over us. That mean, if we fail to endure them in the midst of our lifetime, and turn away from the Lord, and remain in sinning till we die(physical), then we will suffer the second death - lake of fire!

Wow! This is conditional.

Bible clearly teaching us that our salvation is conditional to receive eternal life, that we must take our responsible for to respond back toward God's call by believing, stay in the light, obey, follow Christ all the way to the end, then we will have eternal life.

If we refuse obey Christ, and not want to follow Christ, then, we cannot have eternal life at the end(our death-physical). We might end up in the lake of life(Rev. 2:11).

Enter into the narrow road to the gate is not easy- Luke 13:24.

That why, Christ tells us, "many are called, but few are chosen." The fact is "many were called" represent people who were onced did taste of salvation at the beginning -Heb. 6:4-5, but most of them quit turn away from the Lord, at the end, they are not 'chosen'-eternal life as it compare with Matt. 7:13-14.- Sad.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

TCGreek,

I will respond back to you on Abraham on James 2:14-26 later today.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Decided to delete it.

 

Amen TCGreek, again we are in agreement.

It is amazing that what God does :wavey:

 

Allan

You are making salvation the work of man and not the work of God and, sadly, you apparently do not realize it. Perhaps the following Scripture will bring you to reality.

Romans 8:28-30
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now show me the part man plays in the above work of God in Salvation.

 

That's a good analogy.

Baptism is important, but not a requirement for salvation. That is supposed to be the first step in a Christian's life after they have accepted Jesus Christ as their saviour.

 

TC don't you believe that faith is in obedience?. James 2:18 If it weren't in obedience then how could James show anyone his faith by his works?
MB

 

You did not answer the question. Your original statement was ”that 'faith' must be in the right place and person.”

Your above reaponse is about faith in person or thing, not place. Place means a particular portion of space whether of definite or indefinite extent.

Now please tell me what you mean by ”that 'faith' must be in the right place and person.” I think I understand what you mean by person but will not really be sure until you explain what is meant by the “right place”.

By the way, saving faith is the gift of God and is subsequent to the work of the Holy Spirit in giving spiritual life to those who are dead in sin. This is clearly slown by Ephesians 2:1-8. 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unregenerate man, the spiritually dead man. The things of God are foolishness to him and will continue to be until he is regenerated by the Spirit of God and given the gift of saving faith.

 

Ephesians 2:1-8 [NKJV]
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2* in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Now please look at verses 4-6 which state that God who is rich in mercy made us alive when we were dead in trespasses. Where does it say anything about our faith before he made us alive, that is regenerated us, made us “born again” or “born from above”?

John Gill states about verse 2:8: “through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh 6:65 Php 1:29 “

John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.