John Calvin’s errant views

What is wrong with you? No one has attacked you. You come on here and belittle and talk down to people, and then act like a whipped puppy (Poor me!)?

You need a reality check. YOU are the one attacking and being rude (even off topic in your own thread!).

 

2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Thats pretty clear. God chose them, they did not choose God. Note the "through"...God chose them THROUGH belief (faith), not BECAUSE of faith. God chose them, and then used faith as His instrument.

Um, actually as has been shown, you have not posted anything by Calvin. When you do, we might respond to it.

Could have fooled me.

 

Van,

It does not take a lot to wonder why Calvinist have not replied to your statements proper.

Lets look at your words and place what Calvin said beside them.

YOU..Not everyone hears the gospel. (True.)
Calvin..The covenant of life is not preached equally to all


YOU..Not everyone responds in the same way to the gospel. (True) Calvin......and among those to whom it is preached, does not always meet with the same reception

Now look at what you disagreed with..

YOU..The apparent injustice is acceptable because God’s election for His purpose aligns the seeming injustice with justice.

Now I knew as soon as I read this line that Calvin didn't say this. Calvin does not see election as unjust.
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Calvin....This diversity displays the unsearchable depth of the divine judgment, and is without doubt subordinate to God’s purpose of eternal election.

See how much you changed the words??

That is not even close.

Shame on you

Please ask forgiveness for misleading others.

 

Shame on who?

Mr. I-KNOW-CALVIN-AND-CALVIN-WOULD-NEVER-SPEAK-OF-APPARENT-INJUSTICE!, perhaps you missed this on the the CCEL website:

John Calvin Romans Commentary

 

I suppose YOUR views are inerrant, which gives you the privilege to attack Calvin's the majority of whose views have been agreed on by millions down through the centuries.

Kinda like reminds me of my seminary president, and pastor of the Baptist church I used to attend back in my old country. He says that Scoffield's commentaries in his Scoffield Bible were erroneous. Well, I do not agree at all with Scoffield in many of his commentaries myself, but I will not announce to one in all in a most assured manner as he (and you) did that somebody whose Bible edition along with its commentaries and doctrines to whom millions down the centuries have agreed is an ignoramus.

Also reminds me of two pastors, one Arminian, one Calvinist (at least when I knew him), in the Philippines, who were having some practical differences and somebody commented to the Calvinist that the Arminian seems to be getting out of line.

The Calvinist replied: Well, I'll listen to what you're suggesting if you can show accomplishments for the Lord on the same level as the dear brother.

Oh, and, yes, the comment in parentheses suggests he moved over to the "both-doctrines-are-in-the-Bible-so-both-are-true-and-correct" camp.....but in my opinion (mine) that's because a foreign church supporting his "ministry" is Arminian. What did Paul say now ?.....the love of money is the root of all evil."

 

Here's that Scripture from the KJT:

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Now, I much prefer the KJT, since I am not a KJT ONLY fanatic, but I really do not see such a big discrepancy here, except maybe in your befuddled mind ?

And also, "chosen to salvation" and "to be saved" ..... from what ? Eternal fire ? Damnation ? the coming judgment at the Great White Throne ?

Didn't Christ's blood do that ?

But if I may add, you, dear Van, are in need of salvation.....the same gospel salvation that Paul spoke of to the Thessalonians. Salvation in this world from idolatry and paganism and lies (which many of them practiced), through the separation, the calling out, (sanctification) of the Spirit, turning them to truth and to worshipping God in Spirit.

 

Look up the word salvation here in any concordance and you will see it is a noun. The prepositional phrases following show ACTION and are therefore adverbial and MUST modify the verb. The verb in this verse is "chosen".
Adverbial clauses never modify a noun. That is why several of the MVs have altered the word salvation (which is a noun in this verse) to interpret it as a verb which Van pointed out. This is altering the word of God.

 

Amen my Brother Amen:applause:

 

Jerome, Van,

When you misquote someone please allow a few pages to go by before you do. Its not a good idea to make it your next post.

You said...
Mr. I-KNOW-CALVIN-AND-CALVIN-WOULD-NEVER-SPEAK-OF-APPARENT-INJUSTICE

I said...

1...Now I knew as soon as I read this line that Calvin didn't say this.
2...Calvin does not see election as unjust.

1st I want to thank you for calling me "Mr", although I have a feeling it is facetious, still it is a step up in our relationship. Thanks again Mr Jerome.

2nd, I know Calvin would not say what he was quoted as saying. This I stand with. (not what you said I said)

Now you have posted something that you feel has overturned my logic. But why this is so, is not clear as of now, but it is my feeling you have not.

So lets look at the facts.

Calvin was indeed misquoted by VAN. There is no getting around this.

********

So how do I account for the quotes you give from Romans 9.

It's helpful to understand what an argument is and is not. An argument can be broken down into three major components: premises, inferences and a conclusion. Here Calvin has set a premise. Notice the few text for understanding and especially take note of how Calvin speaks of the counterintuitiveness in the human mind toward election.....

NOW COMES YOUR QUOTE....

Please take not of....AS THE FLESH IMAGAINES.....this is the counterintuitiveness that I was speaking of. Calvin is setting the premise for the rejecting of election, but has stated just before this is "Monstrous surely is the madness of the human mind,".


He then moves toinferences of Scripture.

I do not have the time now to finish this...(CHURCH)....but maybe I will later.

Here is what Calvin says next.

The end game....

Election is not about being just or unjust. Its about mercy which I plan on showing Calvin teaches.

 

I was listening to this sermon again on audio last night as I was exercising.....lots of meat in it for Christians struggling. If you like it I suggest you spend 15 min to read thru the whole thing. For me, it was life changing.

Blessings to all
Steve D.


The Method of Grace
by
George Whitefield
(1714-1770)

Jeremiah 6:14 - "They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly,
saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace."

As God can send a nation or people no greater blessing than to give them faithful, sincere, and upright ministers, so the greatest curse that God can possibly send upon a people in this world, is to give them over to blind, unregenerate, carnal, lukewarm, and unskilled guides. And yet, in all ages, we find that there have been many wolves in sheep's clothing, many that daubed with untempered mortar, that prophesied smoother things than God did allow. As it was formerly, so it is now; there are many that corrupt the Word of God and deal deceitfully with it. It was so in a special manner in the prophet Jeremiah's time; and he, faithful to his Lord, faithful to that God who employed him, did not fail from time to time to open his mouth against them, and to bear a noble testimony to the honor of that God in whose name he from time to time spake. If you will read this prophecy, you will find that none spake more against such ministers than Jeremiah, and here especially in the chapter out of which the text is taken, he speaks very severely against them _ he charges them with several crimes; particularly, he charges them with covetousness: `For,' says he in the 13th verse, `from the least of them even to the greatest of them, every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest, every one dealeth false.' And then, in the words of the text, in a more special manner, he exemplifies how they had dealt falsely, how they had behaved treacherously to poor souls: says he, `They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace, when there is no peace.' The prophet, in the name of God, had been denouncing war against the people, he had been telling them that their house should be left desolate, and that the Lord would certainly visit the land with war. `Therefore,' says he, in the 11th verse, `I am full of the fury of the Lord; I am weary with holding in; I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together; for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days. And their houses shall be turned unto others, with their fields and wives together; for I will stretch out my hand upon the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord.' The prophet gives a thundering message, that they might be terrified and have some convictions and inclinations to repent; but it seems that the false prophets, the false priests, went about stifling people's convictions, and when they were hurt or a little terrified, they were for daubing over the wound, telling them that Jeremiah was but an enthusiastic preacher, that there could be no such thing as war among them, and saying to people, Peace, peace, be still, when the prophet told them there was no peace. The words, then, refer primarily unto outward things, but I verily believe have also a further reference to the soul, and are to be referred to those false teachers, who, when people were under conviction of sin, when people were beginning to look towards heaven, were for stifling their convictions and telling them they were good enough before. And, indeed, people generally love to have it so; our hearts are exceedingly deceitful, and desperately wicked; none but the eternal God knows how treacherous they are. How many of us cry, Peace, peace, to our souls, when there is no peace! How many are there who are now settled upon their lees, that now think they are Christians, that now flatter themselves that they have an interest in Jesus Christ; whereas if we come to examine their experiences, we shall find that their peace is but a peace of the devil's making _ it is not a peace of God's giving _ it is not a peace that passeth human understanding. It is matter, therefore, of great importance, my dear hearers, to know whether we may speak peace to our hearts.

For the full sermon:

http://www.biblebb.com/files/whitefield/GW058.htm

 

Nevertheless, the preposition is showing instrumentality NOT cause. It is not saying "He chose you for salvation BECAUSE of sanctification and faith", but "through" or, "By using" sanctification and faith. Paul never uses "en" to denote cause.

 

Indeed you are right Havensdad. I translate it ...."through the work of"

 

It shows HOW we are chosen. Simply break the sentence down and it becomes clear.

If I were to write;

Ye are chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Does that make sense? Is it a complete thought? Yes.

But what if I wrote;

To salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

or

Salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

Does this say something? Can it stand as a complete thought, a proper sentence? No.

Sanctification of the Spirit is God's part in salvation, belief in the truth is man's part.

 

This tired, old argument means absolutely nothing! Millions, down through the centuries have believed that the Catholic church is the real church. Millions, down through the ages have believed there is no God at all. Millions, down through the ages have believed slavery is an acceptable way to treat others.

Just because you can point to a large number means only that you can point to a large number, nothing else. It has no real value at all.

 

That is ridiculous. There is just an "and" in between "sanctification" and "belief in the truth'!! Either we are saved "because" we are sanctified (holy) and have faith, or we are chosen and THROUGH faith and sanctification that choosing is carried out (instrumentality). You cannot insert imaginary delineation between two words connected with a direct correlative (Kai).

You said "sanctification of the Spirit" is God's part. Why? There is nothing in the sentence that says BOTH are not "God's part." There is nothing in the text that is saying what you are saying, and all of the grammatical and syntactical evidence says otherwise. Paul is saying HOW God chose THEM, not WHY God chose them, and there is a huge difference there. This is saying that God USED faith, and USED sanctification (as if He chose us because we were "holy"...BLAH!), as the MEANS of completing his choosing, not as the criteria for it...


A person with just a little Greek, is a truly dangerous thing. You can interpret a loophole into anything, if you are not willing to let the text say what it says.