God and TIME

At least we are a lot closer than the rest. I also believe that His Spirit strives with man but I believe "all" men and we either let Him in our hearts or keep Him out.

 

This is a different concept but if we are predestined through the foreknowledge of God and John in Revelation saw the end of the world, then all of this has already happened and been played out. God operates in all phases of what we call time. He is everywhere at every time. God is infinate. We are not. Our understanding is limited. This is one of the great mysteries.

 

I agree with you. There is a reason why the progression in the Bible starts with "those He foreknew" (those with whom He had an intimate relationship even before they were born), He predestined, called, etc.

It should be obvious that it is illogical for God to foresee something, foreknow that the person will believe, and THEN, as a result of foreknowing, call him.

But the foundation of the problem I see in this discussion isn't the logic. It is that people are adding to the text of the Bible. The text never talks about God foreseeing that some will believe and electing them on that basis. It never even hints at that. This is simply a man-invented scenario that people add to the Biblical text in order to hold onto their belief in salvation by free-will choice.

Their entire view stands on the assumption that "it's possible because God is outside of time". Well, duh. It's also possible that God elected people based on the results of his own personal lotto system. But the Bible doesn't say that, either, so both assumptions are equally ridiculous.

 

You Calvinests take the human factor out of it completely. You don't think a man can choose Christ unless he is chosen first. Phooey! God wishes that none should perish, but that all would come to repentance. Jesus is the second Adam. Adam made a choice to disobey God. Christ gives us all the same choice.

God does have foreknowledge as John saw the end of the world. God did look ahead and see who would come to Him and chose them accordingly.

You believe that unless God's spirit touches a man he will willingly reject Christ therefore holding him accountable.

Don't you think that is just a little unfair? I choose to believe in a God that really did sacrifice His son for the sins of the world. Whosoever WILL call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved.

Calvinisim is a cold and heartless side to christianity. You claim to fulfill the great commission only because it is commanded. You don't really believe it does much good as God has already chosen. I'll give you a little hint: Most Calvanist churches don't soul win. If they do, it is half hearted at best. They give up on people too easily writing them off as unchosen.

Those that believe in foreknowledge give the gospel out of love and believe that God uses them to make a difference in other peoples lives. They don't give up on people and pray for them beleiving God will answer. My mother got saved after 5 years of prayer and witnessing.m If you don't believe a persons heart can change on it's own accord you wouldn't have that kind of stamina. Jesus says come! You have no basis to say that only those chosen can come unless you see that we are chosen because He saw the decisions we would make.

 

I agree too that He sees us believe and He is the cause of our belief because he gives all men a right to believe or disbelieve. If He had not made us in His Soverneignity to have the will to believe or disbelieve then we would of been just robots created by God without thought, means and would be no different than a "rock". I believe the Holy Spirit is striving with "all" men trying to get them to follow the "good" Spirit instead of the spirit of "darkness". As far a before the foundation of the world I believe that too according to "time" but God is not constrained to time and "Fore" means nothing to Him, He sees all at once. peace canady,

I agree with you Soulman.:thumbs:

 

First of all, my point was that it doesn't matter what you think makes sense, or what you think is possible. Just because God can foresee the future doesn't mean He did what you say He did.

What matters is, does Scripture say He did it that way? And there's no place in Scripture, ANYWHERE that says or implies that God elects those He foresees will believe. This concept does not appear in Scripture anywhere. Even the Trinity is implied, whereas the idea that God elected those He foresaw would believe isn't even implied, let alone stated.

The only way you can get that from Scripture is to misinterpret words like "foreknew", which does NOT mean "knew in advance about something". It means "knew [people] intimately even before they were born". In other words, God elected those who were His friends, His sheep, even before they were born.

Second, the robot argument is what is called a non-sequitur. It does not follow that if we are chosen to believe that we are robots. That is, once again, purely a human argument (and a badly flawed one, at that) and carries no weight whatsoever against what Scripture plainly teaches.

What amazes me most of all is that the bulk of Scripture from beginning to end teaches that WE CAN DO NOTHING WITHOUT GOD. Not "some things". Not "a few things". Not "a trivial thing". NOTHING. God spends an awful lot of time hammering home a point that is TOTALLY contrary to the concept of salvation by free-will. The fact that people continue to insist that they are saved by their own free-will choice just shows they still don't "get" the Bible.

 

Soulman;
No where in Scripture does it say God forsees those who don't believe either that is why time does not confine God. The foreknew is for man because man is confined by time but God is not confined by time so He don't foresee, He sees who believes and who does not believe the same as He sees your death and how you will die, so He knows who to predestinate and call and justifiy and Glorify. Who hath known the mind of God and who hath been His councelor, for sure no one on here. He sees everlasting to everlasting and that is Scriptures for God is everlasting to everlasting.
He sees all of the following:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

seeing

Before you begin reading how can anyone believe that all the following Scriptures were written without the knowledge of God. Think about it. To say that God never knew foreknew all these Scriptures is to say that man wrote them all on their own. I believe all Scriptures were given of God and were written by men as moved upon by the Holy Ghost, Maybe I believe in a different God that JAuthor does, I don't know. amen and peace

Quote:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

humm Great verse...but nothing about seeing

The Lord is not slack concerning His promises but Calvinists says He can't see when He does it.
Quote:
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now this is a good one. You said God sees all this..and you put in bold "all men to be saved". Are you saying this is what this verse means? You also Bold..."A RANSOM FOR ALL"...and this too you said he seen. Christ paid the right to own us, we are not our own...bought with a price(ransom)...and God saw this...and now all are going to heaven...for this has been seen as done. I'm not sure that is the meaning is it Bob? Did God already see this? If so...who is all?

Here God sees His son pays the atonement for all men but they must believe and Calvinists says God can't see what His son does. Thus Calvinism blinds.

Quote:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

humm Nice verse...but nothing about foreseeing

Here we have a God that is everlasting to everlasting and sees all things at one but Calvinism can't see or believe that He is an all wise God. blindness again.


Quote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I'm missing the foreseeing part.

Here God so loved the world but Calvinism apparently does not believe in an Omnipresent God or can't even see His own plan of salvation.

Quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

yet another great verse. No forseeing.

Here is Gods plan again but according to Calvinism, God does't know anything about it.

Quote:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

nope not here

Again, Calvinism says that God is blind to who believes on His Son or what will happened to Him if he believes.

Quote:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

nor here

Again, God plan where a man can be saved but, Calvinism can't see or believe that God knows His own plan.

Quote:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

nor here

Here the Scriptures explaining what God's power is but according to Calvinism God doesn't know anything about it.

Quote:
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

nor here

God's own work but according to Calvinism God doesn't know it.

Quote:
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

nor here

Here God explains the end of the Law but must of forgot He did it.

Quote:
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

nor here.

Again God at work but must have blinders on.

These were good verses about faith and believeing Bob. Where are your verses on foreseeing? Post a verse that says foreseeing is the same as faith.

They everyone came from an all knowing and all wise God.

again...when you see election, foreknow, choosen...these words all give the reason as it is Gods pleasure. When it comes to faith, it is man that has been "seen the light".

Again, seen the light and believed, I agree, you got one right.:thumbs:

[leave personal attacks out of the thread please.]

[Your sarcasm does you no good. Attack the doctrine, not the person.]

(Do keep James in your prayers, as you may everyone else on the board. No need to point him out specifically in any sarcastic way.}
DHK

 

This is childish James. [Indeed it is--for both of you. You both ought to be ashamed of yourselves!!] [childish remarks deleted]

You were gone. I am the one who PMed you and ask you to come back and post again. If I wanted you gone I would of just kept quiet and let you pout. You are out of control James.[You are not the moderater Bob.] (Other remarks deleted)

You don't believe God saw all those verses? What do you believe James?

 

Is it just me, or did Webdog not answer Jarthur's original question? I thought it was a good question that needs answered. From what perspective does God want us to read "foreknew" in Romans 8?

 

If a person's heart can change on its "own accord" then what is the purpose of praying for them? According to this logic, the only thing we should do is witness and the rest is up to them. Asking God to save them would be wrong, since God might actually do it and thus -gasp- violate their free will!

 

Andy T;
Let me talk about my own life. When I was in the world before becoming a Christian I knew if I died in that condition I would go to hell but yet I chose to live that way knowing that hell would be my home if I got killed in an auto accident. Why? because I loved that kind of living and was willing to take the chance of missing Heaven. I also had intentions before I died after I had lived my wild life for a while like the prodical son of calling upon God and repenting if He would have me. Why? because I didn't want to go down to a devils hell. I eventually did that. Now, did I have a choice? If that is not a choice given to me by a Sovereign God then I don't know what is. Everyone I have ever talked to says the same except some on BB.

 

Psalms 139:1-4, 7-10

O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.

If He can do that to an infant and also to someone 100 years old. To someone in Kentucky and also someone in England then God can be anywhere all the time without constraints of time or space. He is Omnipresence and infinite. God is not like us, He is God of all.

What some fail to see is that God sees everything at once. He sees how and when we all will die. Does anyone doubt that?

The reason some do not want God to be able to do this it destroys their theory of doctrine but regardless the truth will stand when the world is on fire.

Anyone think for a moment He don't know when you believe?

God is everlasting to everlasting He said I AM the beginning and the end. Anyone who is trying to think like God needs to go to Him in prayer. He thinks he knows something, knows nothing as he should.

 

Canady, you are in extreme error in that we had a relationship with God before the foundations of the world. God simply doesn't have a relationship with sinners, of which we all are before we get saved. we are given the measure of faith. We are given the Word of God which faith comes by. It is up to man to seek God who is seeking to save man, but God has principles. Calvin invented principles to try and make God live by.