1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

John R. Rice Family Disavows Sword of the Lord Editor

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by North Carolina Tentmaker, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,371
    Likes Received:
    2,405
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And with nearly a hundred years experience, that's the way we like it.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,136
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dr. Bob said:

    What and who in tarnation are the 1-2-3 pray after me crowd ?

    Serious question.
     
  3. Bob Rogers

    Bob Rogers New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2004
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    0
    I remember hearing Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Bill Rice. The fact is, that the Rices and several others left or were thrown out of the Southern Baptist Convention. Dr. Jack Hyles went out the SBC door when he refused to break fellowship with blacklisted preachers. A connection between Dr. John R. Rice and Dr. Jack Hyles? That connection went back decades! In the mid 70s, I heard Dr. John R. Rice`s associations blast the SBC from the pulpit. They took pride in either leaving or being thrown out of the SBC.

    Bob
     
  4. Orvie

    Orvie New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2001
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Rice's grieved over some of the things going on in the SBC, but the fact remains that J.R. Rice did NOT write them off wholesale. Just look at some of the old Swords and articles by SBC men.
    He even shared the platform on occassion w/ SBC men, and even w/ Pentecostals, as long as they left those particular views behind. (of course they knew where he stood regarding tongues, etc) John R liked to quote the psalmist,"I am a companion of all them that fear Thee, and of them that keep Thy precepts." (119:63)
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Serious answer. Group of "soul-winning" types have devised a little ditty prayer of easy believism - no repentance needed - that they can get bus kids to pray. THEN they claim the kid is born again, they baptize him (of course, to pump up the numbers in their church reports) and the next week do it all over again.

    Hylesish mentality. We all CONDEMN Billy Graham for his preaching, big altar calls, then leading a little prayer and thousands saved. But that is exactly what the typical "soul winning" night at many ifb churches is like. Only one on one, or one to a group, or one to a bus.

    Had a young man go (against my wishes) to HAC. He rejoiced that he went to an inner city park with a bus, gathered a group of kids, and then said he would pray a prayer and anyone who prayed with him should raise their hand -- they were then saved. And anyone who got "saved" could have an ice cream bar as they got off the back door of the bus.

    He said that 200+ kids had been saved in 25 minutes.

    Now, if I was a savvy kid, I'da raised my hand, gotten the ice cream, eaten it, got back on the front (they all look alike, right? :( ) and done it again and again until the ice cream was gone.

    THAT is a first-hand example of 1-2-3-pray-after-me mentality. 200 kids, still on their way to hell, now THINK they are going to heaven . .
     
  6. preacherchris

    preacherchris New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    i attended liberty uiversity 80-86 which at the time was independent.at the time falwell took a stand similar to that which the sword is taking now. at the time falwell was against contempory music,used only the kjv in the church and school,he even said from the pulpit that he would never use billy graham as a guest preacher.he at the wanted to have the largest fundmentalist college now he is a sbc and want an evangelical school.he is now attacking the sword for taking a stand he once took.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,136
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dr. Bob:

    Thank you for the kind explanation. Nauseating, if I may say, that system.
     
  8. Blazin4Christ

    Blazin4Christ New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2004
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    whats gone wrong with Sword?
     
  9. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    KJV onlyism,legalistic, easy beleiveism,and my way or the hiway.There is a starting point.
     
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,504
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Serious answer. Group of "soul-winning" types have devised a little ditty prayer of easy believism - no repentance needed - that they can get bus kids to pray. THEN they claim the kid is born again, they baptize him (of course, to pump up the numbers in their church reports) and the next week do it all over again.

    Hylesish mentality. We all CONDEMN Billy Graham for his preaching, big altar calls, then leading a little prayer and thousands saved. But that is exactly what the typical "soul winning" night at many ifb churches is like. Only one on one, or one to a group, or one to a bus.

    Had a young man go (against my wishes) to HAC. He rejoiced that he went to an inner city park with a bus, gathered a group of kids, and then said he would pray a prayer and anyone who prayed with him should raise their hand -- they were then saved. And anyone who got "saved" could have an ice cream bar as they got off the back door of the bus.

    He said that 200+ kids had been saved in 25 minutes.

    Now, if I was a savvy kid, I'da raised my hand, gotten the ice cream, eaten it, got back on the front (they all look alike, right? :( ) and done it again and again until the ice cream was gone.

    THAT is a first-hand example of 1-2-3-pray-after-me mentality. 200 kids, still on their way to hell, now THINK they are going to heaven . .
    </font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Bob, the sad part is that many of the bus routes at FBCH/HAC have free hamburgers for those who get saved or baptized, and some kids do it time after time after time. :( They must not keep good records at the church or this nonsense would never occur in the first place. :eek:

    AVL1984
    [​IMG]
     
  11. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've been recieving the Sword since around 1980, and still rec it, although I've been dismayed w/ the direction it has gone. S. Smith spoke at the KJVO school in Haines City, FL, and I'm sure the Dr Rice would disapprove of that.
    I read the same article in the Biblical Evangelist, and it's sad to see, as the other poster put it, that Dr Smith has indeed "hijacked" the Sword.
    One of S. Smith's preacher boys has taken a church over on Long Island and is in the process of running it into the ground. In a recent issue of the Sword Dr Smith wrote how well he was rec'd when he spoke there in July, which simply wasn't true, acc to a deacon friend, who attends that very church!
    I found out a few weeks ago that my former Pastor is on their staff now, and he writes articles for them on Soul Winning. I was surprised that he joined them because he took a similar stand when he was my Pastor in the 70's (Louisville)that J.R.Rice took. I have great respect and love for him and wish him all the best, but personally, I wish he hadn't joined them. If he feels God called him, I leave it in God's hand and my former Pastor has the soul liberty to chose that direction. BTW, he's the Pastor Emeritus of Franklin Rd BC....sorry to ramble.... :(
    </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I wouldn't call it rambling; it is more accurately called gossiping--all hearsay, opinion, and supposition. [​IMG]
     
  12. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hogwash, foolishness, nonsense, drivel, poppycock, claptrap, inanities, twaddle, gibberish and baloney!Didn’t it occur to anyone that most of the posters on this thread are doing to Sheldon Smith the very thing for which they are castigating him? This smells of hypocrisy! Posters are uttering the same clichés without making any sensible arguments or defining issues; it is sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. Better yet, it is full of “sound and fury . . . . .(you know the rest).

    Here are a few pertinent facts and thoughts that no one has bothered to notice:
    1. Joy Martin and the Joyful Woman have associations and do things that were rejected by the Sword circles in the 1960’s & 1970’s.
    2. Elizabeth Handford, along with her husband Walter, have left the Fundamentalist circles to associate more in evangelical or neo-evangelical circles. Walt led Southside Baptist Church (Greenville, SC) out of hardcore Fundamentalism. They are no longer part of mainstream Fundamentalism.
    3. Joy published her letter in Falwell’s journal. Falwell, of course, has longtime been a pariah of Fundamentalism.
    4. TTU, with which Joy and husband are associated, has drifted somewhat from its moorings so that its alumni, for the most part, endorse or support it. Witness its decline in enrollment and the TTU pastors who support other schools such as Crown.
    5. The SBC from which JRR withdrew was far less compromised than the supposedly conservative SBC today. Much of the swing toward conservatism in the SBC is due to the more rank liberals retreating and withdrawing rather than the whole becoming more conservative. It is a diluting effect, not purification.
    6. On the webpage with Joy Martin’s article, we find an ad for Rick Warren’s appearance at Falwell’s Super Conference. Would JRR have endorsed this? There’s definitely a difference of theology here.
    7. The whole argument seems to center around people—JRR vs. Sheldon Smith—not issues. It’s rather like the church where a new man succeeds a pastor of fifty years. Everything the young fellow does is scrutinized and compared to the old man’s and found deficient. Seems that Sheldon just ain’t doing it John’s way.

    Read’em and weep!
     
  13. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry, I know exactly what I'm talking about, having beeb a subscriber to the Sword for over twenty years, I've eyewitnessed it's descent into "tabloidism", and elitism. Currently the Sword represents the Neo-Fundamentilists, not the historic Fundamentalists as J.R.Rice. Again, read the link of what the Rice family wrote, who would agree with my assessment. ;)
     
  14. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
    You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
    No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
    Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists. :(
     
  15. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
    No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
    Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists. :(
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well, it really doesn’t matter what JRR would think, even though he is not here to defend himself against others who would speak for him, but what matters is what God thinks. It is sheer presumption and folly to speak for another man. ;)
     
  16. paidagogos

    paidagogos Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,279
    Likes Received:
    0
    You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
    No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
    Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists. :(
    </font>[/QUOTE]Elitism, huh? [​IMG] So you’ve been reading the Sword since 1975—makes you the expert? :D Sounds a bit like elitism to me. :D Well, I’ve been reading it since 1969! :D Makes me better, huh? [​IMG]

    And, then there’s Joy’s letter. It’s ironic that a woman is carrying the banner in this war. Of course, there are precedents—Ellen G. White, Aimee S. McPherson, et. al. I really failed to find anything persuasive or much cerebral matter at all in it. Seems her whole claim to credibility was her relationship to the old man—JRR. If this doesn’t smack of elitism, I don’t know what does. She’s part of the royal family and beyond suspicion. Since when did being a preacher’s kid qualify one to speak on anything? Some PK’s have turned out to be real rascals. Oliver B. Greene’s kids have never commanded the respect that I had for the old man. Then, there’s Jack’s boy—well, better leave that one alone.

    The fact is that we don’t know where JRR would be on these issues today. Lots of men have changed their positions since JRR’s demise. He could have changed a lot too. It might surprise a lot of us! After all, with his dictation theory of inspiration (see The God Breathed Book), he might be KJVO.

    BTW, what’s with the cut about David Cloud. Is this an amateurish attempt to smear me with guilt by association? Yeah, I read his stuff. I’m great friends with his son, Jonathan. Bro. Cloud and his family are doing a great work for the Lord in Nepal. Who are you to judge God’s servant? So, what do you know about him? Or, do you just not like his views? Seems a bit narrow-minded and prejudiced to me. David Cloud I know, but who are you? :confused:
     
  17. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,504
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    paid says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Well, it really doesn’t matter what JRR would think, even though he is not here to defend himself against others who would speak for him, but what matters is what God thinks. It is sheer presumption and folly to speak for another man.

    AVL1984 says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think Dr. Rices works speak from beyond the grave. He was very clear on things he stood for, and it is a far cry from where Sheldon Smith and Curtis Hutson took the Sword of the Lord. He did not viciously attack people as they do. He allowed room for differences of opinion, where they don't. Paidagogos, you speak of something you know little or nothing about, and it shows.

    AVL1984
     
  18. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    7,504
    Likes Received:
    62
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paid says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; David Cloud I know, but who are you?

    AVL1984 says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The same could be asked of you, couldn't it? I receive Clouds newsletters, eletters, etc., on a regular basis, but I don't agree with him on everything. You seem a bit prejudiced and haughty yourself. God tell us that we have the right to judge by the fruit the people put forth. Hutson, Smith and Cloud have put forth some very divisive items and positions.

    AVL1984
     
  19. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2004
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    I started reading the Sword in 1978. I also read several of Dr. Rices books. Dr. Rice was not a KJVO person and was VERY CLEAR on that subject. He also was not an eletist.He did beleive in living a separated life though.I think it is sad the direction mr. smith has taken the Sword of the Lord.
     
  20. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2001
    Messages:
    741
    Likes Received:
    0
    AVL- you answered for me, thanks. Mr P is pretty good at twisting things around. His type and S. Smith's elitism is somewhat new to Fundamentalism. Note he tries to say I am attemting guilt by associating him w/ Cloud. NOT TRUE! I was attempting; perhaps poorly, that his info seems to be straight from Mr Cloud, that's all! I too read David Cloud's newsletters, some are very informative, but sadly he fosters the elitism rampant in Fundamentalism. :(
    Mr P seems to imply that Joy has no right to express her opinion even though she's J.R.Rice's daughter, and knew her father better than he does, Cloud, Smith, etc...because she's a woman! (like E.G. White)Bro Rice had no sons, so who else in the family can express their dismay at the current direction of the Sword?
    As far as S. Smith taking the Sword in the direction he deems necessary, good for him! I still rec the Sword, despite it's elitist leanings, but I no longer in good conscience can send my monthly financial support.
    BTW, my Dad stopped recieving the Sword because he had signed up for their lifetime membership subscription, then they turned around asking for more money to continue his subscription! A far better publication, and it's **free**, although they ask for contributions, is the Biblical Evangelist, edited by Robert Sumner, who's not afraid to expose the narrowness, and elitism in Fundamentalism. BTW, this is where I read Joy's article, I wasn't even aware that it appeared in Falwell's publication till I read the first post in this thread.
    For those who have read the Sword for years, even since 1969, and think that the Sword is as good or better now, I'm at a loss for words. :confused:
     
Loading...