How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

OK, Bob, here it is:

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
--The chapter is about Israel. Paul states his credentials as well as stating that God has not yet finished with the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
--In the above verses Paul reminds his readers that God is not finished with Israel, even as He was not finished with them during the time of Elijah. When Elijah was discouraged, the Lord encouraged him, reminding him that he had seven thousand others that had not compromised His word either. The application here is: As the Lord had left a remnant then, so the Lord has a remnant now, and will always have a remnant called “Israel.” “At this time there is a remnant.”

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
--One of the most important verses in the Bible. That remnant, that will eventually turn to Christ, will be saved by grace. And if grace, then it will not be by works. This devastates SDA theology. It is one of the strongholds of OSAS. Salvation is all of grace; nothing of works. Grace never fails. Works fails; the grace of God cannot fail for it is of God and not of man. Salvation is all of grace. If it is not all of grace, it is of no grace at all. If any works are involved there is no grace at all.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
--Israel sought for the Kingdom and did not obtain it. The “elect” obtained it. Israel was blinded. And verse 8 explains that further. God has given them a spirit of slumber. It is difficult for the Jews to see the truth of the gospel in this day and age today.

Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
--The prophecy of David is being fulfilled right before our eyes, and has been ever since the day that the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
--“Their fullness” indicates that God has not finished with them yet. He has only put them in a state of blindness to the gospel, or “slumber” as he describes it. They are not dead. “The riches of the Gentiles” is simply a reference to all Gentiles, and the blessings that have come to them via the nation of Israel.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
“You Gentiles” are the gentiles in general, not necessarily believers.

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
--Paul went to all of Israel with the Gospel. Only some of them were saved. That is what he means “which are my flesh”—the Jews. “might save some of them”—not all the Jews were saved. Not all the Gentiles are saved that he is referring to. When Paul said he magnified his office as an apostle of the Gentiles, it was to provoke the Israelites to jealousy (emulation), that they may desire Christ. That was his heart’s desire.

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
--The phrase “cast away” is else where referred to as “slumber”. It is not permanent. God is not finished with Israel yet.
Thus if Israel is set on a shelf for a temporary period of time so that the world might be reconciled, what shall the receiving of “them” (Israel) be, but life from the dead? In other words God has not forgotten Israel.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Now Paul uses a couple of different metaphors.
The firstfruit is Abraham—the father of the Jews. He was set apart (made holy) by the Lord.
He also is the root. If Abraham, the root, is set apart, so are the branches. Thus if Abraham was set apart so were his descendents that formed the nation.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
--Some of the branches were broken off. Those would be portions of the tribes of unbelieving Israel. Because of their rejection of the Messiah they were moved from their place of privilege.
--The wild olive tree refers to the Gentile nations as one people. Remember the Jews were referred to as one at first as well. All Gentiles share in a privileged position that once was Israel’s.

The main trunk of this olive tree is not Israel. It is God’s line of privilege down throughout the centuries. Or as some believe it is “God’s people” whether Jews or Gentiles, that are able to enjoy God’s privileges.

If the trunk were Israel it would make a very bizarre picture.

The nation of Israel was the first to be in this line of privilege. They were God’s ancient, chosen, earthly people. Because of their rejection of the Messiah, “some of these branches were broken off” and thus lost their position of ‘favorite son.’ The Gentiles “were grafted” into the olive tree and became partakers with believing Jews “of the root and fatness. The root” point back to Abraham, with whom the line of privilege began. The “fatness” of an olive tree refers to its productivity—that is, to its rich crop of olives and oil derived from them. Here the “fatness” signifies the privileges that flowed from union with the “olive tree.”

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
--But the Gentiles should not take a holier-than-thou attitude toward the Jews, or “boast” of any superiority. Any such boasting overlooks the fact that they didn’t originate the line of privilege. Rather, it is the line of privilege that put them where they are, in a place of special favor.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
--Paul anticipates that the imaginary Gentile with whom he has been conversing “will say,” “Jewish branches were broken off so that I” and other Gentile branches “might be grafted in.”

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
--The apostle admits that the statement is partially true. Jewish branches were broken off, and the Gentiles were grafted in. But it was because of the unbelief of Israel and not because the Gentiles had any special claim on God. The Gentiles were grafted in because, as a people, they stood by faith. This expression, “you stand by faith,” seems to indicate that Paul is speaking of true believers. But that is not necessarily the meaning. The only way in which the Gentiles stood by faith was that, comparatively speaking, they demonstrated more faith than the Jews did. Thus Jesus said to a Gentile centurion, “I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel” (Luke 7:9). And Paul later said to the Jews at Rome, “Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!” (Acts 28:28). Notice, “they will hear it.”As a people they are more receptive to the gospel today than Israel. To “stand” here is the opposite of to “fall.” Israel had fallen from its place of privilege. The Gentiles had been grafted into that place.
But let him who stands beware lest he fall. Gentiles should not be puffed up with pride but should rather fear.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
--If God did not hesitate to cut off the natural branches from the line of privilege, there is no reason to believe that He would not spare the wild branches under similar conditions.
So as he was speaking to the nation of Israel as a whole (both believing and unbelieving), he is speaking of the Gentiles as a whole (both believing and unbelieving). He is not speaking of someone’s individual salvation, and thus it has nothing to do with eternal security or OSAS. The subject all along has been about Israel, from the start, and will end with the restoration of Israel in the final verses.

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
--Paul anticipates that the imaginary Gentile with whom he has been conversing “will say,” “Jewish branches were broken off so that I” and other Gentile branches “might be grafted in.” (much of this information was taken from Believer's Bible Commentary, by W. MacDonald, but not all.)

 

We never want to "edit, downsize or change" any scripture. What we do is we apply the rules of hermeneutics.

The scripture lying cannot be an option. I didn't decline to answer, here it is again, maybe you just read over it too fast....

:jesus:

 

This, added to the way that you previously addressed the same scripture, points to your unbelief that Paul either is unable or not allowed to teach believers about the nation of Israel or about Gentiles in general. You seem to think that because the letter in general is written to saved, Gentile believers, every time "you" is used it must refer to these saved believers in Rome. This is not even true on the board is it? Every time I use "you" you don't take it as "Bob, a specific representative of the SDA movement," do you? Why then do you apply it so specific here? "You" is very general and is often used in a very generic sense. It need not be used in a very specific sense as you are trying to force it to.

 

That is not exegesis Bob. It is refusing to look at the entire context in which the verses are written.

 

Could that 'something other' possibly be akin to an unfounded presupposition by some wild chance?

 

YOU WHO ARE GENTILES

could be:
1. All the Gentiles in Rome.
2. All the Gentiles in the church of Rome (i.e. believing Gentiles in Rome)
3. All Gentiles in general (believing and unbelieving)
4. All believing Gentiles throughout all ages.
5. All Gentiles believing and unbelieving throughout ages

You look only through one eye. You see only one option.
"You who are Gentiles." He didn't say: "You who are Gentiles, the way Bob Ryan understands it,"

 

HP: Yes……..and it could be speaking directly as to include you and I on a personal level as well. :thumbs:

 

Paul is addressing Gentile believers--ie those who were at that time currently standing by faith: "...and you stand (present tense) by faith". (Romans 11:20)

 

I have a question for those of you who oppose scriptural teaching that salvation is eternal.

Why do you oppose the notion that God will (as He says) finish the work He has begun in us.

Could it be that the religious and natural mind cannot grasp those things which are spiritually discerned?

It must be, for most of those who oppose the assurance that is found in trusting in Christ's righteousness for salvation are almost to a man assured that they do not sin.

Despite the fact that God has made it clear that all have sinned.

Their reasoning is flawed in a number of ways:

If, in fact, you commit no sin when you are "truly" saved, then you could certainly at that point have assurance that you are eternally saved and will go to be with Lord when you die.

Your offering of works in the place of Christ's death is akin the belief of the Pharisee that you are reconciled to God after salvation because you are "good", and thereby retain your salvation.

The constant condemnation of other believers shows a lack of love for brethren that the Lord showed as proof positive evidence that you are Christ's.

It ignores that we created in Christ Jesus unto good works, not by them.

It ignores the whole teaching of God, and accuses unjustly that those who believe in eternal security also believe in license to sin.

I believe in the security of the believer, but also that God is conforming His children to the image of His Son, and is causing them to walk in His statutes by the indwelling Spirit and washing of the water of the Word.

The Word was intended for people of faith, that they might present it to people of no faith.

The warnings within are meant to bring people of no faith to God (i.e. the unbelieving population of Israel, who heard the gospel, but had not faith).

If you would like to discuss the passages you use to promote that a born-again believer can revert from the new birth back to the natural state, I would be glad to talk with you.

God bless.