Preterism

Another excellent post IMO; I believe it's a very viable rendering of a difficult to understand passage. I've saved it to file.

You said:

Actually it was sometime late in the year AD 66, that Cestius Gallus, [Roman] Governor of Syria and Commander of Roman forces, marched his army into Judea in an attempt to quell the revolts. Vespasian arrived with his forces the following year.

Question for you or anyone else:

And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition. Rev 17:11

What/who is the eighth beast?

 

You sure have a strange perception of prophecy none of what you wrote even comes close to what you said about the sequince in Revelations. You leave me with no clue of what you're talking about because every action of these beast are different they don't all happen at once they appear several times even at the end when they are thrown in to the fire.
MB

 

I'd like to expound a little farther on this. I hope you don't mind Tom.

The Woman of Rev 12 and the Harlot of Rev 17, at the time of the writing (the sixth head), are both distinctly Jewish (they are not all Israel, that are of Israel). Note that both these women have offspring. IMO, because the seventh head was yet to come and both these women of Revelation have children, gives merit to a futuristic and/or idealistic, ongoing view of many of the prophecies of Revelation, even to this day. In fact, there were periods of of 'great tribulation' during the times of each of the beasts, i.e. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Holy Roman Empire, which gives merit to a historical view of the book also (Ecc 1:9). This is one of the main reasons that I am a partial preterist and not full.

The Woman,as the children of the heavenly Zion, was persecuted by these beasts (Gen 3:15). The Harlot, as the unfaithful wife of Jehovah, committed fornication with these beasts (Ezek 23:3,5,14,30; Acts 2:23; etc., there's many more).

There's not a lot of scripture to go on concerning events after the destruction of Jerusalem. The ten kings of the seventh head were to make war with the Lamb. We, as Baptists, are acutely aware of the persecutions the Church suffered at the hands of the Holy Roman Empire. The ten kings of the seventh head were also to hate the Harlot, eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Herein lies the realization of the punishments and curses outlined in Lev 26 & Dt 28 (etc.) on the Jews for not hearkening unto the voice of Jehovah, i.e., the persecutions, pogroms, expulsions, etc, that the Jews have experienced down through the last two millennia.

As the Mother of Harlots, Alfred Edersheim (himself raised a Jew) shows that Gnosticism had it's roots in apostate Judaism and Hassell states that the most famous Gnostic was the Alexandrian Jew, Valentinus. The Judaizers of the early Church most definitely came from Judaism, and even consider that Karl Marx himself was a Jew. I've not done much research in this area but I'm sure there's been many, many Harlots spun off from Judaism down through the years.

It seems to me that as the Old covenant had it's Harlot, the RCC could also be considered as the Harlot of Christianity. I've often wondered if there is a connection between apostate Judaism and the RCC.

 

You are right about Gallus

You said:

"Actually it was sometime late in the year AD 66, that Cestius Gallus, [Roman] Governor of Syria and Commander of Roman forces, marched his army into Judea in an attempt to quell the revolts. Vespasian arrived with his forces the following year. "

You are exactly right about Gallus. So I wouldn't create such a long post, I left out his lighthorse attack that failed and picked up with Vespasian since when he comes into the picture the dates match up with the 42 months spoken of in the tribulation.

When Gallus failed to put down the rebellion Nero knew he had a real problem on his hands and called his old War Horse Vespasian (he helped conquer Great Britian) out of retirement (some say he fell asleep during one of Nero's performances and fell out of favor with him and got retirement as punishment) to get the job done right before other area of the Roman Empire got the idea they might succeed in rebellion also.

 

What do you do with Zechariah 14 to fit the view of preterism?

 

I am not questioning your belief, this is an honets question. Do you feel Zech 14 has taken place or is to take place at the end of the world?

If past when did it take place?

If at the end of time how will those who survive come to Jerusalem to worship?

Do you see the plague as symbolic?

 

I've done a little research on the web. IMO, Islam itself could well be a daughter of the Harlot.

'The Jewish Foundation of Islam' (1933) by Charles Cutler Torrey (I suspect Torrey himself is Jewish but haven't been able to verify)

Charles Cutler Torrey (1863–1956) was an American historian, archeologist and scholar who presented manuscripturial evidence to support alternate views on Christian and Islamic religious sources and origins. He founded the American School of Archaeology at Jerusalem in 1901.

Torrey taught Semitic languages at the Andover Theological Seminary (1892–1900) and Yale University (1900–32).

Some of Charles Cutler Torrey's studies are included in The Origins of The Koran: Classic Essays on Islam’s Holy Book edited by Ibn Warraq.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Cutler_Torrey

Torrey was an advocate for the early date of the book of Revelation in 'Documents of the Primitive Church', (ch. 5); and 'The Apocalypse of John' (New Haven: Yale, 1958).
http://www.preteristarchive.com/BibleStudies/ApocalypseCommentaries/Dating/Early/index.html

Excerpts from:
'The Jewish Foundation of Islam' (1933) by Charles Cutler Torrey
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Jewish/

“The doctrine that the foundation of Islam was mainly Christian has held the field for nearly half a century. It is completely refuted......Certain theories too hastily propounded by the greatest European authorities in this field have dominated all subsequent research.”

“Unquestionably the first impression gained by a reader of the quran Koran is that Muhammad Mohammed had received the material of his new faith and practice mainly from the Jews of the Hijaz. On almost every page are encountered either episodes of Hebrew history, or familiar Jewish legends, or details of rabbinical law or usage, or arguments which say in effect that Islam is the faith of Abraham and Moses.....”

“These facts, if taken by themselves, would obviously indicate that the Arabian prophet's religious education had been thoroughly Jewish.....”

“'This quran quranic Koranic teaching is Gnostic,' or 'This is Manichaean'-in our dense ignorance of the type of Christianity that was known in the Hijaz, and especially, the type of Judaism that was actually present in Mekka in muhammad Mohammed's time, and from which we know him to have derived such a very large proportion of what we find in the quran Koran......”

“....there is no clear evidence that muhammad Mohammed had ever received instruction from a Christian teacher, while many facts testify emphatically to the contrary; and that, on the other hand, the evidence that he gained his Christian material either from Jews in Mekka, or from what was well known and handed about in the Arabian cities, is clear, consistent, and convincing....”

“...The fact of the Israelite city of Khaibar, "the richest city of the Hijaz," is one very significant item among many. Such a civilization is not produced in a short time. Native Arab tribes "converted" in the manner supposed would have been certain, we should imagine, to welcome and accept the prophet of their own number who promised them a truly Arabian continuation of Judaism adapted to their own special needs, while based squarely on the Hebrew scriptures. But the Jews of Mekka, Medina, and the rest of the Hijaz knew better, and would not yield an inch....I have thus far been speaking mainly of the great number of Arabs professing the Israelite faith, in muhammad Mohammed's time.....”

“....The quran Koran repeatedly speaks of "the children of Israel" as the most favored people on earth-up to the time of Islam; and in addressing them the prophet always reminds them that they know their scriptures.....”

“Far more important, however, is the testimony contained in the quran Koran. The Israelite tribes with their rabbis, their books, sacred and secular, their community of faith and action, and their living contact with the past, are there; they are no phantom. All through the quran Koran there is evidence of a Jewish culture, which muhammad Mohammed greatly admired, and of Jewish learning, which he very imperfectly assimilated.”

 

Zech 14

Hello Whowillgo,

I saw your post on Zech 14. I'll be honest with you that was a very tough chapter to figure out how to reconcile as a full preterist. I did a lot of research on it and read all I could find on it. I don't agree with what every preterist says on it by any means, but yes I think it is all fulfilled and I want to answer every question you posed on it, but it is late and I will need to deal with something that deep over the next day or two or three has I have time. It is a great chapter and we shouldn't shy away from what it has to offer just because it is hard.

Logos1

 

Zechariah 14 part 1 (too long for one post)

Everybody seems to have trouble understanding Zechariah 14. Martin Luther said he just gave up on this chapter and didn't know what it meant.

Maybe my mind set was too anchored to my dispensational upbringing, but I don't mind admitting I had no small measure of difficulty resolving Zechariah 14 completely with full Preterism. It was a struggle for me, but it was worth the effort and struggle to arrive at and be completely comfortable with that resolution.

As a full Preterist, Zechariah 14 gave me more problems than any other chapter in the bible. Verse 12’s description of their flesh rotting while they are still standing etc. sounds like a pretty accurate description of the effects of a modern weapon of mass destruction. You can't blame people who only hear the dispensational model of eschatology for believing this describes a future event.

There is one telltale piece of evidence that is a dead give away that Zechariah cannot be about events in our future. The way it is written using the Jewish rituals (Festival of Booths for example) of the Old Covenant dates events as pre Second Covenant. The events could be under the Old Covenant or they could be Old Covenant type descriptions of events that would happen as the Old Covenant was ushered out and the New Covenant ushered in, but they can't be things that would happen in the New Covenant. Given the way the events here tie into 70 AD we can safely associate them to 70 AD.

Understanding Zechariah 14 is much easier if you first get a solid feel for the general flow of the chapter before trying to delve into specifics. Don Preston does an excellent job of helping one get a general flow of Zechariah 14 by pointing out that it is one of the most often cited books by New Testament writers. Don shows the similarities between Zech 14 and the Olivet Discourse which can't be just a coincidence.

Match the letters up in each category:

Zechariah 14
A. Siege of Jerusalem 1-2
B. Day of the Lord 1, 5
C. Coming with his holy ones 5
D. Jews led away captive into the nations 2
E. Day known only to the Lord 7

Olivet Discourse
A. Siege of Jerusalem Mt. 24:2f
B. Coming of the Son of Man 24:30-31
C. Coming with his angels 24:31
D. Jews led away captive into the nations, Luke 21:24
E. Day known only to the Lord 36

Don also does a great job comparing Zechariah 14 to Revelation

Zechariah
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints, 14:5
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 14:4-5
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at siege of Jerusalem, 14:1-5
D. Time of light, 14:7
E. River of living waters, 14:8
F. The Lord shall be King over the earth, 14:9
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14:10
H. No more curse, curse removed, 14:11
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 14:14
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 14:16-20

Revelation
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints 14:14f; 19:11f
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 6:12-17; 11:13; 16
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at judgment of city "where the Lord was crucified" 11:8-13
D. Time of light, 21:23
E. River of life, 22:1
F. The Lord is King of the earth, 11:15; 19:16; 22:3
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14, 21
H. No more curse, curse removed, 22:3
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 21:24
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 7:9-17* (vs. 17 also has the fountain of living waters)

Hardly coincidence.

Philip Carrington noted that except for Ezekiel, Zechariah influenced the book of Revelation more than any other book.

But how about the details of Zech 14.

Take the famous verse about Christ standing on the Mount of Olives.
Verses 3 and 4 HCSV

3 Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.

One big problem with grasping the details of Zechariah is verse 3 where it says the Lord will go out to "fight against" those nations. Most translations try to help us out by using the word "against." Most ironically let's look at the Father of Dispensationalism's translation (Darby) which he intended to be a very literal translation and it doesn't say "fight against" it says "fight with."

So what is going on here? We know what it means to "fight against" someone, but if you say "fight with" it can have three different meanings. For example John fought with Tom could mean John fought against Tom and they are enemies or it could mean John and Tom are allies as in John fought with Tom against Jim. Or you could say John fought with a club to mean he used a club as a tool to fight with.

The same issue comes up in Revelation 17:14 where most translations say "They will fight against the Lamb," some translations like the LITV, YLT, and Darby all use the term "with." At first glance it appears they are fighting against the Lamb; however, if you look down to verse 17 it says "for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled" which makes it sound like the Lamb is fighting with the Beast as his tool or even as his ally to accomplish his plan to destroy Babylon (i.e. Jerusalem).

I would have to contend here that Christ is not fighting against those nations who are fighting against Jerusalem in Zechariah (or Revelation) he is using them as his tool to fight against Jerusalem--he is bringing judgment on Jerusalem.

In verse 4 I have to disagree with futurists where it says Christ's feet will stand on the Mount of Olives means He will physically descend from heaven and stand on the actual soil of the Mount of Olives. I believe this scripture was fulfilled in 70 AD by the 10th Legion which operated on the Mount of Olives and the splitting mentioned in the verse was fulfilled by their trenching on the mount. It was from here that they catapulted white 100 pound stones into the city thus fulfilling Revelation 16:21 where it says 100 pound hail stones fell from heaven into the Great City or Babylon.

Whowillgo asks: Do you see the plague as symbolic? Answer: No I don't see it as symbolic--it is literal.

The toughest part of Zechariah for me to understand as a full Preterist is verse 12.

ESV
"And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths."

There is no escaping the fact that it says “the Lord will strike all the peoples that wage war against Jerusalem.” And yet the description of the plague is a very accurate description of what happened to those people in Jerusalem (the Jewish people) who were trapped inside Jerusalem during the five months the Romans laid siege to the city. Starvation got so bad that people looked like rotting corpses.

(As a quick side note the Roman five month siege would be Revelation's 9:5 prediction of when the scorpions are not permitted to kill them but torment them for five months. Josephus also describes how this fulfills Deuteronomy 28:52-53 where during a siege you shall eat the fruit of your womb.)

So how can verse 12 be understood? Is all of Zechariah 14 up to verse 12 describing a Preterist interpretation then for one verse (or through verse 15) it goes futuristic and then switches back to Preterist? Obviously this wouldn't be logical. Such time shifting would confuse everyone.

Verse 13 describes such confusion among the people that they attack one another. If you read Josephus writings on the siege he describes in horrific detail how the people trapped in the city fought, terrorized, and killed one another.

Some Preterist say Jerusalem here refers to the church or the saints; however, if you deem this reference to represent the church then you are forced to switch back and fourth throughout Zachariah between when Jerusalem represents the church and when it represents Old Jerusalem. And, since Zechariah doesn't help us with which is which you have to make the interpretation on your own. I think there is a simple, straight forward path to Preterist reconciliation of this verse.

Is it possible that verse 12 seems reversed and opposite of recorded historical events because of our translations?

Checking the Hebrew Interlinear Bible it reads: "the people which they muster on Jerusalem." This gets translated in modern bibles (ESV) as "peoples that wage war against Jerusalem"

Is it possible that the people mustered on Jerusalem are not fighting against it, but are the one's occupying Jerusalem? If so this would align this verse with the balance of the chapter and provide a consistent reading throughout the chapter.

Smarter people than me may disagree with this interpretation, but I feel comfortable with this interpretation given that it brings the verse into a consistent alignment with the chapter has a whole and into harmony with the actual historical events.

 

Zechariah 14 Part 2.

Whowillgo said: If at the end of time how will those who survive come to Jerusalem to worship?

Answer: This is not the end of time just the end of the Old Covenant.

Again, I found this hard to understand for a long time, but I think others have done a good job explaining this passage which generally follows these lines.

The Feast of Booths celebrated the harvest. It commemorated the journey out of bondage to the Promised Land where the people traveled in temporary booths or tents till they got to settle for good in the Promised Land. As a result of the joy associated with the Feasts of Booths it became known as the most prominent of the Jewish holidays. People hailed the arrival of the Messiah with palm branches from the Feasts of Booths. From the second night through the seventh they celebrated drawing water with the light celebration which looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. (Notice the self described imagery here of living water and light of the world which Jesus applied to himself). This festival has strong ties to the longed for and expected Messiah.

Obviously people can't come to physical Jerusalem to worship since it has been destroyed. The coming of the Messiah ushers in the New Jerusalem (as in Revelation 21st chapter)--the New Covenant. Since old covenant language is all Zechariah had to work with he describes the New Covenant in the Messianic language he understands. Relate this to the language in Revelation 21. Those who choose not to come into the Second Covenant--theirs is the second death.

It takes some effort to see it, but Zechariah 14 is a glorious knitting together of the return of Christ, judgment of Jerusalem, and dawn of the New Covenant. It is a powerful and majestic, if in some ways complex, description of those events.