What Is "Proof Texting"...

Let's stop derailing the thread. It's about proof texting and not about original sin. Start your own thread. If you do, I have a good answer that may help you out with the passage, but I won't do it here as that is not what the thread is about.

 

I have heard preaching on bearing "much fruit" as the need to excuse the excessive sin of a "great soul winner."

That unless there is the fruit of soul winning, the person is not "right with God" or not "separated enough" or ...

Of course when ask what specifically were the fruits of the spirit, "soul winning" is most always part of the answer.

Let's see the fruits of the Spirit are love, soul winning, joy, soul winning, peace, soul winning ...

I think this would also be included as proof - texting.

 

I guess Isaiah would not have been saved.

 

How can you discuss proof-texting without discussing famous examples of proof-texting? Does everybody agree that folks proof-text? Yes. Discussion over.

 

I did read the OP, and proof-texting is not necessarily a weak argument, Jesus quoted proof texts constantly.

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Here Jesus used Psa 82:6 as a proof text.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Here, Jesus rightly used scripture as a proof text. The Mormons will take this same verse and misuse it, claiming that everyone can become a god.

By the way, Psa 82:6 says we are all children of God, not the devil.

 

Oh sorry. That's what I meant. I was agreeing with him about people who want to use the quantity of souls "you save" as a measure of spiritual fruit. My point was that Isaiah made no converts so according to this measurement he must have had no fruit. I was being sarcastic. There is no smiley for that. :laugh:

 

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

2 “How long will you[The Hebrew is plural.] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[The Hebrew has Selah here.]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

Exodus 19:5
Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

 

I said no such thing and you know it, you intentionally misrepresent what I said. You do this all the time to many people. As you twist scripture, you also twist the words of others.

Psa 82 is speaking of the rulers and judges of the nation, who stand in the place of God, who execute judgment upon the people.

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus openly declared himself to be God. These rulers who stood in the place of God to execute judgment wrongfully judged Jesus of blasphemy. Jesus said if they were called "gods" who ruled and judged the people, how much more he who had demonstrated he was the Son of God?

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

These rulers were called "gods" by the scriptures. It was their job to rule and justly judge the people, but they misjudged Jesus. They had seen many miracles and good works performed by Jesus which proved he was God, yet they accused him of blasphemy and attempted to stone him.

But as pertaining to proof-texts, the Mormons will pull Psa 82:6 out of context to argue that man can become a god. It is one of their favorite proof-texts.

 

"We" are not gods. This psalm is talking about the judges of Israel. They were called "gods" because they served in a godlike capacity of judging right from wrong.


They were "sons of God" because they were of Israel, God's chosen people.

 

He is not blaming his mother but is confessing to God that his corruption was from the womb.

You cannot prove this from scripture but can only make conjectures and site opinions.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

In context this is speaking of offenses against the law of Moses and not the sin and death nature.

Ezekiel 18

19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.​

22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall li

As to our sin and death lineage :

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

Not necessarily so winman, he didn't say he received it from his mother but it was a product of his mother's human conception. There are two chromosome components of conception which occurs in the womb of the mother but the seed (origin) is from the father.

OK, so this post is a good example of "proof texting" from the Bible (which IMO is good, or should we quote perhaps from The IIliad as an alternative?).

Reader decide.


HankD

 

It doesn't matter, you are teaching that we bear Adam's sin, when the scriptures clearly say the soul that sinneth, it shall die, and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father. If we are born dead because of Adam, then we did not die because of our own sin but Adam's, and we indeed bear the iniquity of Adam.

Augustine was apparently unfamiliar with this scripture.

And this chapter is speaking of eternal death, not temporal.

Eze 18:17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.
18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

This passage is not speaking of being executed, it is speaking of dying "in" sin. This is the language Jesus used in John 8.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus is not speaking of physical death, everyone dies physically. He is speaking of dying "in" your sins, that is, spiritual death. This is what Ezekiel 18:18 is speaking of also, dying "in" his iniquity. Words matter.

Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Again, this is not speaking of physical, temporal death unless you believe God is saying that a man will go unpunished for his sin in this life. Do you bellieve God is saying in verse 21 that if a man commits murder but then repents the law should forgive him and let him go unpunished? Absurd. Verse 21 is speaking of forgiveness of sins, which only God can forgive sins. So, this is not speaking of punishment under the law, but eternal punishment or forgiveness. Again, note that verse 24 speaks of dying "in" sin.

Matthew Henry recognized this chapter is speaking of eternal death, not temporal;

Original Sin is in direct contradiction to God's word that no man shall die for the sins of his father. If we are born dead because of Adam's sin, then God has broken his own law.

 

You are wrong winman (IMO).

You keep quoting passages such as Ezekiel 18, etc. which are related to actual sin as "proof-texts". Each of us is responsible for our own actual sin. By sinning we put our stamp of approval on Adam's sin by chosing sin rather than God.

The origin of sin and the reason we sin has to do with Adam not Moses or Ezekiel which are speaking of actual sins and transgressions against the law which was added to show the sinfulness of the sin which resides in us.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

We are born dead but not in the meaning of the death which is the result of a particular sin.

There is a death which comes from rejecting God's grace and Christ after reproval/conviction of sin. There is no remedy for this sin because He is the way, the only way. The soul which commits this sin will indeed die and that without remedy. This is the second death.

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.​

Those who are born dead (separated from God) because they are Adam's seed will come to life by believing in Jesus Christ.

Yes they are dead, separated from God, but they can still hear God because with God all things are possible.

Lazarus resurrection is a model. He was dead in his grave but he heard Jesus voice when He commanded him to come forth.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice.​

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

So, they had to have heard His voice while they were dead (separated from God) in order to pass from death unto life.​

As John 5:28 says: "marvel not at this", when He speaks the dead hear Him. Some of the dead apparently are content to remain in the grave.​

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

Those in this condition of rejection of the grace of God will eventually suffer eternal separation from God per the scripture.​

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

abideth on him - Grk. meno - remains on him.​

HankD​

 

Hank, I do not disagree that men are dead in sin and must be born again, the issue is when they become dead in sin. Is it when they are conceived or born? Or is it when men commit actual sin?

Ezekiel 18:20 says the soul that sinneth, it shall die. How can a person born dead die? This verse also says the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father, neither the father the iniquity of the son. If we are born dead because of Adam, then we indeed bear his iniquity. If your view is true, it is not our personal sin that causes us to die, we are born dead before we can ever commit personal sin.

I know folks think this is some heretical view I hold, but it is exactly the view held by the Anabaptists who were persecuted by Catholics and Calvinists.

That was just to show you there have always been Christians who rejected Original Sin on the ground of Ezekiel 18.

I reject OS because of Ezekiel 18, I do not believe God has imputed Adam's death unconditionally to us as the Anabaptists also believed. I believe "the soul that sinneth, it shall die", that is, every person dies spiritually when they knowingly and willingly commit their own sin. If we die because of Adam, then God would be breaking his own law.