Featured Wouldn't God have to be "Open" in order to Allow Chance?

"I can not fathom" and "we think" is part of the problem in accepting the verses given on this issue. That makes reasoning and philosophy the final authority on the matter instead of the Scripture. Regardless of whether you "fathom" it to be true or not, the Scriptures are clear on the matter that God does not dictate and determine everything that He foreknows.

This is why we have from our perspective what we refer to as MIRACLES. Miracles occur when God decides to transcend the laws of what we perceive as the normal operation of the universe. To call God truly sovereign, you have to "permit" Him to choose when He allows His creation to operate independently within the laws that He governed them to operate by, and when He chooses of His own will and pleasure to intercede and alter the course of events from their intended course. God is free to do either, and to dogmatically claim that God can not choose in such a manner is to deprive Him of His sovereignty not defend it.

A good example of this is in Joshua 10. God created universal laws the keep the sun at a certain distance from the earth, and produce a certain amount of heat and certain amount of light as well as a specific 24 hour revolution. Once these laws were dictated to the sun and earth, God rested, and allows those elements to operate independently. However, in Joshua 10:13, God intervene and altered the revolution of the sun. God changed the natural course of how the sun normally operated that day. God's sovereignty demonstrates that God is not bound by creation or circumstances. However, in the Calvinistic system of thought, God is bound by determinism. Calvinism does not permit God to act any other way than how their presuppositions demand that He act. In Calvinism, God determines all things because HE MUST, and thus denies that God intervenes AS HE CHOOSES and BECAUSE HE CAN.

 

I see that you cannot fathom how "determinism", as you call it, works. I'll leave it at that.:wavey:

 

You're close. My belief is that God works all things out for His glory- ALL things - all THINGS.

Some would say- it just happened that although both Mexdeaf and his sister got the German measles, only Mexdeaf had a high fever that lasted for several hours, and as a result became deaf when he was six years old.

But I see it as God's plan. He gets the glory because due to deafness and his saving grace, I have had the privilege to share His word with Deaf people in many countries and see some follow Christ.

There are no "small things" that God does not control, because all things bring Him glory.

 

OK well if you want to believe that God directly intervenes in the coin toss between two NFL teams then that is your prerogative. Now it is true that the coin, field people and everything else, to include the gravity that makes the coin fall to the ground exists because of God. But that does not imply direct intervention.

 

Yeshua1 said Jesus had no choice as to whether he allowed himself to be taken in the garden, I showed scripture where Jesus absolutely implied he could have called on his Father, and his Father would have sent twelve legions of angels to rescue him.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The context of this verse is that Peter had just swung his sword and cut off the servant of the high priest's ear. Peter was going to fight to prevent Jesus being taken prisoner by these soldiers.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and asked if Peter did not think he cannot NOW pray to his Father and PRESENTLY he would GIVE ME more than twelve legions of angels?

So, Jesus was absolutely implying that he did not have to be taken if he chose not to do so. Otherwise this statement would be nonsensical. Actually, if it were not possible for Jesus to call on his Father as he said, then Jesus would have been a liar.

And this is what Yeshua1 said, that Jesus DID NOT have this choice that Jesus said he had.

That is for all practical purposes calling Jesus a liar whether you like it or not.

 

Thank you and God bless you for your great testimony here!!!!!!!

 

You don't get it, Jesus was not LOCKED into it being done, Jesus clearly implied he "could" call on his Father and that he would presently send more than 12 legions of angels.

If your view is true, Jesus would be lying. If he was "locked into it being done" as you say, he COULD NOT call on his Father, and his Father COULD NOT send more than 12 legions of angels.

That's the problem with Calvinists, when it comes to a conflict between your doctrine and what scripture truly says, you pick your doctrine over scripture!

 

"Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" Heb 5:7

 

Jesus chose the person you cite in the verse, he did not choose Jesus. Without a touch from the Lord, he would not have "strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death."

 

Isn't that Jesus in that verse SN?

 

Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. It was as good as done. :thumbs:

 

Did you read the quote in context with what Winman said? Your statement is totally non sequitur to the context. The verse wasn't cited to prove who chose Christ, or who Christ chose, but in context with what Winman quoted that Jesus could have called upon the Father to send angels to assist him, which Yeshua denied. Hebrews 5:7 states specifically that Jesus being a priest after the order of Melchizedek, showed that the Father was able to save him from death which is perfectly in order with Matthew 26:53: " Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

 

He did indeed call unto the Father:

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mt 26:39

The cup was death and He was heard. His prayer was answered. GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

The Jews judged Him to be worthy of death, but God judged righteously and annulled their judgment by raising Him from the dead. Take note of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter in convicting the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD:

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

 

First of all, when I said "could have called" I was quoting someone else.
Secondly, your restatement of what I said, and the ensuing argument is out of context. Your argument is in support of Jesus prayer in the garden of Gethsemene; the issue that Winman raised was about Jesus' response to Peter after he lopped off the ear of the high priest. Had nothing to do with an answer to a prayer.

But, while we're on the subject, you left out one of the best verses of all, Jesus' statement about the resurrection that proves He is God, John 2:19,

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"

But of course, I note that your comment had nothing to do with the response, and is just more of the usual rhetoric against me as a Jew considering that most of what you underlined was a reference to the Jews involvement in the crucifixion of Christ.

However, you should be thanking us Jews because is if it wasn't for us being the only sinners on earth, you sinless perfect Americans would never get saved. 1 John 1:8

 

You referenced Heb 5:7 and Mt 26, so did I. Jesus called upon God and was heard, God did not leave His soul to Sheol.

Oh baloney, you're so vain. That's nearly all C & P from an old thread of mine couple years ago. It's a fact, get over it, the scriptures make it abundantly clear, the Jews judicially murdered Him but God raised Him from the dead.

Here's a little more C & P concerning His resurrection:

I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', was Christ 'committing himself to him the judgeth righteously'.

I believe that His request, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'.

I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous, after the Jews had unrighteously judged Him to be worthy of death

I believe the following passages from the Psalms to be Messianic and related to what is recorded in Mt 26:39 & Heb 5:7:

He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21:4

For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16:10

8 I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
10 Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper. Ps 30

4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears. Ps 18

4 Pluck me out of the net that they have laid privily for me; For thou art my stronghold.
5 Into thy hand I commend my spirit: Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah, thou God of truth.
13 For I have heard the defaming of many, Terror on every side: While they took counsel together against me, They devised to take away my life.
14 But I trusted in thee, O Jehovah: I said, Thou art my God.
15 My times are in thy hand: Deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
16 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: Save me in thy lovingkindness.
17 Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol.
22 As for me, I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: Nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications When I cried unto thee. Ps 31