1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured My thoughts on Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TisMe, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    TisMe, your reading list appears to be across a pretty good spectrum of opinion on Calvinism.

    I would like to speak to what I believe are a couple of wrong conclusions about Calvinists.

    One misconception is that Calvinism produces arrogance. I disagree. If anything, it should produce deep humility and gratitude. I don't know a single Calvinist whom I consider arrogant. In fact, arrogant Calvinist is an oxymoron.

    We all believe in salvation by grace through faith. We bring no merit to the table. We have nothing to offer God to merit his grace. The same with election. We bring nothing to the table. If election is based on foreseen faith, it seems to me that we elected ourselves, and God owed us salvation because of something He saw in us.

    I understand why some would question a soteriology in which God picks winners and losers. Why would God choose some for salvation, and not choose others? To tell you the truth, I don't know.

    And then Romans 9 comes to mind:
    Now reading this passage does not answer my questions about why God chose as he did. But it does explain that God has made those choices and has the right to make them, and that those choices are designed to bring glory to Himself.

    I have to remind myself that God is not obligated to treat us all alike. And I definitely am glad that he does not give us what we deserve. We'd all be headed for the hot place. So praise God for his mercy and his grace to me who deserved none of it.
     
  2. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I think he already encountered the nails on the chalkboard :)
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Probably one of the dumbest and most false claims ever made.
     
  4. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I partially agree, because Calvinists are humans, and all humans are arrogant in on way or another.

    Edited to say: I don't really think its the dumbest thing ever said, but in actual fact, it is not accurate, as there are many arrogant calvinists...though there shouldn't be, as a proper understanding of election SHOULD foster humility.

    As to the Dumbest things ever said, I think this one is worse:

    "Smoking Kills, and when you die, you've lost a very important part of your life."
     
    #24 12strings, Jun 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2013
  5. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Let me clarify. I said arrogant Calvinist is an oxymoron because I believe that no Calvinist (or any other believer) should be. I also said in an earlier post that I don't know any.

    There may be some out there, I've just never met one.

    Here's the definition of arrogant:
    1.
    making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud: an arrogant public official.
    2. characterized by or proceeding from arrogance, or a sense of superiority, self-importance, or entitlement: arrogant claims.

    For goodness sake, what would any believer, Calvinist or non-Calvinist, have to be arrogant about?
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is a good question. But what we know for sure is it is a recognized issue among calvinists where many cals are admitting to it themselves. Piper and a few others have addressed it.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    When it gets down to it, that's all anyone has to offer, is their opinion. Even the learned theologians everyone quotes have essentially given only an opinion, though some may be more knowledge based than others. God bless.

    Likely it should be, and yet I've met a lot of arrogant Calvinists.

    That is probably more of a fortunate accident than an indication of what Calvinism produces.

    If I read Romans 9 correctly, and I believe I do, and follow through to the end of chapter eleven, it appears to me to explain why God chose Israel, and how some of the chosen fail nonetheless. It doesn't appear to deal with individuals at all. If Calvinism is in error, that is its biggest failing.
     
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    You can help me here. How do arrogant Calvinist behave? How do you spot their arrogance. How does it display itself?
    But Paul quoted God as saying He loved Jacob but hated Esau. He referred to them as twins, individuals. I know that there is an application that can be made regarding God's choosing Israel as a favored nation. But the passage itself refers to individuals.

    But however you interpret that passage, the answer is still the same. The chosen have no grounds for arrogance and pride, and a Calvinist who displays arrogance also displays ignorance, while at the same time raising doubt that he believes what he professes to believe.
     
  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    TisMe

    Hello tisme...I am not sure if we have interacted before...if not welcome to the BB.

    12 strings gave a solid response to this on this thread. I am one who denies "free will exists".Man does have a will ...self will...however it is bound by his nature which is hostile to God and His Holy Word.

    I do not....Choice is choice....it has nothing to do with the condition of the will....You have already noticed some use a term ....free moral agency.

    All 9th commandment violations are sinful and a waste of time in that it avoids confronting the scriptural issue.

    This Calvinist will never say that to you or anyone else.:thumbs:

    Most desire to steer clear of carnal human philosophy...and develop a biblical philosophy that is as restored Image -bearers ...we are to think God's thoughts after Him....as He is perfect in all His ways. Isa 55.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    No biblical Calvinist believes this....so when someone who opposes these teachings of scripture suggests this.....it is met with two different reactions.
    It shows the person who has heard this idea is being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Sometimes they have not really heard a reasonable teaching of the verses that teach those things most surely believed among us.....like this-
    http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

    Take a detailed look at this confession of faith that has been held by many baptists.Obviously you need to look at the verses offered:thumbs:
    Any truth held with non-gospel motives can puff up.However this charge is brought by those who do not grasp the core of the teaching and speak against that which they do not yet understand.

    ,

    All men are conceived as children of wrath even as others we are told in Eph2......But God who is rich in Mercy......makes the difference.


    God saves us from our sins....Saving faith is a gift from God...believe is the result of being given a "new heart". God does not open the sinners heart, he does not want their sinful heart....He by the Spirit brings a dead sinner to life by giving a new heart.

    Friend...it is not wrong for God to do anything he in His Holy wisdom has purposed to do.If God wanted to send us all to hell he can quite justly.
    In great Love He has purposed to save a multitude which no man can number in Jesus.

    Why do you believe this teaching is not biblical?

    If God does not seek and save sinners.....they perish ...all of them...no man seeks God...no not one.
    Be careful not to speak evil about the biblical God who has revealed himself.

    In other words ....if the teaching of Calvinism ...is the biblical teaching[and it is} and you rail against it.....you rail against the God who has revealed these truths . You do not want to do that do you????

    ,

    Quite the opposite...the Image-bearer doctrine is a main scriptural root of How and why God restores man,and in fact has predestined it to take place.


    That wrong use of the biblical term foreknowledge which happens many times on BB......has those who say this describing a god who does something based on the fictitious imaged good choices of sinful mankind.
    This is not possible .God does not have to look forward...see what might happen....then react.


    Well here you repeat this error, which must be despised because it is not describing the God of the bible. Can you see this?

    The biblical term foreknowledge is of persons not events....God deals with His Covenant children by everlasting and eternal love.
    3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

    TME...to discuss this it would be helpful to use biblical terms ....premaking??

    God loved US {the elect} while we were yet sinners...

    God does not speak of robots,and neither do Calvinists.

    No one "receives the cross" unless they are born of God....that is the issue.

    this quite frankly shows you need to do some serious study of scripture as you are wandering into the deep end of the pool, before you can swim...:thumbs:
    That image is not intact but fragmented and distorted by sin and death introduced at the fall.You post as if man is A .OK.

    .

    This is another novelty not supported by scripture at all...as it says the NATURAL MAN.....Cannot

    The damage happened In Adam....not because Calvinists understand the scripture.

    This is a clear denial of biblical regeneration, which Jesus said must take place..jn 3:3-5
    These kind of remarks suggest an evil agenda...be careful my friend or you will drift off from the realm of truth.


    Your error about the fall is now leading to shared ignorance of historical reality.

    you do not understand this.

    Thoughts....sure....you are in over your head at this point...it did not go far because you have not quite entered the ball park yet.
     
  10. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."
    Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"
    Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."
    Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"
    Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

    :laugh:
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wonder what Paul meant us us as mere pottery trying to tell th almighty just how he should run things more our way?
     
  12. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    My thoughts on Calvinism...

    Bill C: "Determinism is logically explained to be biblical by Calvinism."
    Bob A: "How do you know?"
    Bill C: "Because it’s in the Bible."
    Bob A: "Why should I believe the Calvinist' view is logically seen in the Bible?"
    Bill C: "Because the Bible was written by God."

    :thumbs:
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    maybe just easier to say because it is the truth?
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Exactly, but the point you clearly missed was “how” you say it is the truth. But it’s aight, didn’t really expect you to grasp the meaning, its deep, don’t hurt yourself by trying to get in over your head on this one…I momentarily forgot where I was at…nevermind. :cool:
     
  15. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    3
    And people on here talk about the Calvinists being snobs and smart-alecks.
     
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Is this your way of calling me a snob and a smart-alecks? :laugh:;)
     
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Which is an unsubstantiated claim and not credible.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    well, at least we can see how ben and van approach coming to this topic with an "open mind!"
     
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,423
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, that gets right to the heart of the matter at hand and settles it doesn't it now? :cool: Thanks for the fine demonstration of your methods of reasoning toward getting to the truth here. :thumbs:
     
    #39 Benjamin, Jun 24, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 24, 2013
  20. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,013
    Likes Received:
    3,649
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are not a cal so you are to much of a peon to have to prove anything to.
     
Loading...