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Clear Explicit Precepts

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Those who oppose OSAS primarily base their opposition upon parables, metaphors and obscure and highly debated texts.

    However, this issue, whether or not those who come to Christ for eternal life can ever be lost is explicitly and directly addressed by Christ in John 6:37-40 as well as, some other clear explicit precepts in the gospel of John which is written for the very purpose that one may come to Christ in faith and obtain eternal life.

    John 6:37-39 reads as follows:

    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


    In John 6:37-39 there are four clear indisputable facts presented:


    1. All that the Father gives to the Son do in fact come to the son - v. 37

    2. Coming is the consequence of being given as the future tense "shall" proves, thus denying and completely repudiating the idea that being given is the consequence of coming to Christ as all non-OSAS teach. Coming is future tense from being given.

    3. The Son is the one responsible for obtaining the will of the Father in verses 38-39 in this matter not the believer as all non-OSAS teach - vv. 38-39.

    4. NONE "of all" those that come to Christ are ever lost - v. 39 which is the essence of OSAS.


    These four indisputable facts are not drawn from parables, metaphors or obscure texts, but are drawn from clear and explicit language that directly addresses the issue of true believers ever being lost.

    Now, my opponents cannot deal with these facts, so they will do the RUN and then JUMP to other contexts that are based upon parables, metaphors and obscure texts and then PIT them against this clear and explicit non-parabolic, non-metaphorical, non-spiritualized direct language.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    EVERY Bible challenge to Calvinism is urged as quetionable and highly-debated by Calvinists.

    EVERY "Fallen from Grace.. Severed from Christ" and "Forgiveness revoked" example in scripture is also to be challenged, watered-down, highly debated by those who oppose the texts.

    What is news there?

    NO text says "All drawn will come to Christ" - so Calvinists "quote themselves and make it up".

    No text says that "by definition" eternal life means OSAS - so the OSAS groups invents that definition.

    Better the Bible than man-made traditions I always say.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The news is your post is EMPTY OF SUBSTANCE as usual! The news is that you cannot repudiate the four indisputable facts presented as they are firmly grounded in the explicit clear language of the text. All you can do is ridicule as that is the only weapon you have in your arsenal besides RUN, JUMP and PIT routine.

    BTW I presented proof for OSAS and you are trying to deflect it to an argument about Calvinism - nice try but stick to the stated purpose of the OP
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
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  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Readers, notice that the only thing opponents can do to respond to this post is ridicule or do the RUN, JUMP and PIT routine. They cannot answer any of these four indisputable facts because they are clearly stated in the text in such clear and explicit language that is impossible to overturn if HONEST hermeneutics are employed.
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Read carefully the Scripture presented in the OP.

    John 6:37-39
    37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    Do you understand what it says? The OP lays it out very clearly. Just what is so difficult about understanding what this Scripture says?
     
    #5 OldRegular, Nov 22, 2013
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    My OP was not about John 6:44-45! Deal with the OP


    "eternal" does not mean "temporal" and that is your definition you impose on the word "eternal." However, the OP defines "eternal" as "eternal" meaning uninterrupted on going not stop continuous life. Hence, without stop or change or interupption.
     
    #6 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the discussion here is NOT Arm Vrs cal on this passage, for its assuming the saved by either view ARE those who have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved, as sauctification is completed unto glorification!
     
    #7 Yeshua1, Nov 22, 2013
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    bible calls it "forever/eternal/unending" so the truth is that it lasts as long as God Himself does!
     
    #8 Yeshua1, Nov 22, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Recall that I start out with your "hollow assertion" above. Apparently you were also wanting Bible texts in my post (but oddly enough - not your own post).

    Recall that the "mere quote of the text" debunks OSAS.

    [FONT=&quot]Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


    [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
    13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
    14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.     [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]
    22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    [/FONT]     Gal 5
    [FONT=&quot]4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[/FONT]

    1 John 15
    [FONT=&quot]2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
    3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
    4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
    5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
    6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.    [/FONT]
     
    #9 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hold on thar ---

    Didn't you post this John 6 idea on the Calvinism vs Arminian thread AND here?

    This is you bringing in the idea that those who are saved as those who prior to salvation were arbitrarily selected out by God from among the lost.
     
    #10 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I predicted they could not deal with the text and four indisputable facts but would either ridicule or do the RUN, JUMP and PIT routine and what do you know, Bob did exactly what I predicted. HE CAN"T DEAL WITH THE FACTS SET FORTH IN THE OP.
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Can't deal with the OP and the four indisputable facts of the Text. More deflection.

    Readers, if they could deal with John 6:37-39 and the four indisputable facts that demand eternal security they would, BUT THEY CANNOT and so their only responses will be:

    1. Ridicule
    2. Deflection
    3. RUN, JUMP and PIT routine
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, I challenge any of the opponents to OSAS to deal straightforwardly with these indisputable four facts spelled out in this text!

    I predict again their only responses will be:

    1. Deflect/ignore
    2. Ridicule
    3. Run, Jump and Pit routine

    They cannot deal straightforward using sound principles of interpetation with these four facts of the text.
     
    #13 The Biblicist, Nov 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 22, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    The arminian model does not need to deny the Bible teaching that debunks OSAS -

    So when we come to John 6 notice that Christ says of the saved that Christ is not the one that casts out the saved.

    and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    We also notice that those who come to Christ will be raised up on the last day... and Christ will not "lose them".

    This says nothing about "they are programmed so they cannot make any other choice" as those who reject the idea of 'free will after salvation" may have at first supposed.

    Well if that is true then the Bible should be filled with warnings for believers urging them not to turn away from the path of faith that they are on.

    Funny you should mention it. That is exactly what we see happening.

    Matt 10:22 "he who perseveres firm until the end will be saved"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Nov 22, 2013
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Quite the contary! In your defense provided below, you are forced to make Christ a sinner and you are forced to reverse the order of things found in the text. I will point your MANIPULATION of scriptures out. And as I predicted you use the RUN, JUMP and PIT routine again.


    Your wording infers that someone else does when in fact this text denies that none "of all" who come shall be lost, not merely because the Son will not cast them out but because the Son obeys the will of the Father who will not have any be lost and places this responsibility totally upon the Son's obedience to His will rather than our obedience to this stated will.

    [
    This final statement in verse 39 is not given as the CONSEQUENCE of the Son obeying the Father's will that none be lost.

    This text demands that "OF ALL" given to Christ NOT ONE shall fail to come to him and it is the expressed will of the Father TO THE SON that the SON "shall lose nothing" given to him. Therefore, if but ONE is lost "of all" that are given to the Son to keep then the Son has disobeyed the Father's explicit will directed solely to Him NOT TO US.



    The old Run from this text and context, Jump to another text and context and Pit them against each other routine, and thus jerks a text out of the context of PHYSICAL tribulation in the last days in order to suggest that the Son disobeys the revealed will of the Father that it is the Son's responsibility to lose "NOTHING" of all the Father gave him.

    So Bob's interpretation demands Christ is a sinner, who failed to obey this direct revealed will by the Father TO THE SON that demands obedience by the Son in losing NOHTHING of all given him by the Father.
     
    #15 The Biblicist, Nov 23, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Quite the contary! In your the defense that you provide below you are forced to reverse the order of things found in the text. I will point your MANIPULATION of scriptures out.



    Your wording infers that someone else does when in fact this text denies that none "of all" who come shall be lost, not merely because the Son will not cast them out but because the Son obeys the will of the Father who will not have any be lost and places this responsibility totally upon the Son's obedience to His will rather than our obedience to this stated will.

    [
    This final statement in verse 39 is not given as the CONSEQUENCE of the Son obeying the Father's will that none be lost.

    This text demands that "OF ALL" given to Christ NOT ONE shall fail to come to him and it is the expressed will of the Father TO THE SON that the SON "shall lose nothing" given to him. Therefore, if but ONE is lost "of all" that are given to the Son to keep then the Son has disobeyed the Father's explicit will directed solely to Him NOT TO US.



    The old Run from this text and context, Jump to another text and context and Pit them against each other routine, and thus jerks a text out of the context of PHYSICAL tribulation in the last days in order to suggest that the Son disobeys the revealed will of the Father that it is the Son's responsibility to lose "NOTHING" of all the Father gave him.

    So Bob's interpretation demands Christ is a sinner, who failed to obey this direct revealed will by the Father TO THE SON that demands obedience by the Son in losing NOHTHING of all given him by the Father.


    Readers, here is the issue of verses 38-39. Who is the Father making responsible that "of all" He gives to come to the Son that "NOTHING" shall be lost? Is the Father making those given responsible as Bob's interpretation by elimination demands OR is the Father making the Son responsible that NOTHING is lost? Who came down from Heaven to fulfil this specified will of the Father? You or Christ? If any are lost "of all" the Father gave to His son to keep then who is to blame according to the responsibility given and claimed in this context? If one "of all" is lost then who is to blame for failing to obey this revealed will of the Father?
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Nov 23, 2013
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And what does this verse mean? Do you cut your Bible up and just paste the texts here and there without ever giving heed to context??

    Matthew chapter TEN
    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    --This is the context: Jesus is sending The Twelve out.

    Matthew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    --This is their mission.

    Matthew 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
    14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    --Some would receive them; some would not.

    Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
    --We are down to verse 16 now and he is still giving them advice.

    Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
    21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
    --They will face persecution as they preach.
    The Holy Spirit will give them the words to speak at those times.
    --Such persecution will they face that even their own families would turn against them.

    Now in this context, Jesus says to his own disciples:
    Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
    --The Twelve were already saved. He is speaking of physical salvation. They were to endure the persecution. Christ would be with them. The Holy Spirit would be there helping them. They would be spared physical death, or at least an early physical death.

    Proof: Of the Apostles, the first one to die was James, and that was by the sword of Herod in Acts 12. That was a long time after this. James brother, John, lived into the second century--a very long life.
     
    #17 DHK, Nov 23, 2013
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Again, who is the Father holding responsible to carry out his revealed will that NONE of those given to Christ are lost? Is it Christ or the believer according to this text?

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    If even ONE "of all" those given to Christ are lost then who is to blame according to these words? Christ or believers? Who is God holding responsible for carrying out this specific will?
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Nov 23, 2013
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