The Gospel...Is it a God ordained means for regeneration or eternal salvation ?

Theo said:

Thank you for acknowledging my apology, Theo. I love you too.

Even the easy-believist will tell you that the cross has no power at all without Christ on it, that in Jn 12:32 Christ was referring to His coming crucifixion portrayed by the brass serpent in Moses' day.

It is not the message of the cross that has drawing power, but the Person on the cross, who draws His people unto Himself, and has declared that He will draw all men unto Himself when He is crucified.

I have answered your question. You just don't want to read it. I don't know what they will say when they get there, you can write the script if you like, but, yes, there will be people in heaven who never heard the gospel, who were enemies of the gospel in time, who never had the blessing of hearing Jesus' Name or knowing about the cross. For example:

babies who died before seeing the light of day. What are you going to do with them, Theo, send them all to hell because they did not have the privilege of hearing about the name of Christ or hearing about the cross of Christ ?

As I write this and as you write your piece, there will be hundreds of thousands of souls who will pass on into eternity, what are you going to do with those who have never heard a preacher, never had the privilege of hearing the gospel, born and raised in a different culture and creed, are you condemning them all to hell ?

 

Theo, dear Theo:

Your energetic dislike for what I believe is clouding carrying you away. I hope that remains to what we are discussing and not get transferred to a person you have not met. You want me to tell you what those who will get to heaven thru the shed blood of Christ and not because they know Him or His Name will say when they get there, did I lie to you when I said I don't know ? You decide what they will say, I don't know. Maybe that's what they wills say. Simple as that.

You seem to be accusing me of promoting another gospel, based on my own logic, which to you is convoluted, right ? Well, Theo, What I am promoting is consistent with what Scripture says.
That God elected those whom He will save, that these elect will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit with no help from a preacher, the preached word, or the written word. Either the Holy Spirit alone regenerates the elect, and the Father elected those He wanted to elect based on Himself and no merit on their part, or He did not. Either the elect believe because they have been made sons of God, or they believe because they heard the gospel.

You also want me to say yes to your view that the gospel is THE means God uses to convert, and I refuse to say yes until I am sure you are also saying that regeneration and conversion are two different things. If so, then I will agree that the gospel is A means God uses to convert His chosen, but that does not make God a God of means, because He needs no means in the regeneration or conversion of those whom He saved and He needs no means for their effectual call.

As for my saying there are those who do get to heaven without hearing the gospel, let me give my position here:


1. Christ is the Door. There is no other door to heaven. There is no other name whereby men MUST be saved. Christ is the Way. There is no other way to heaven. The sins of the elect are washed away by His blood. The fact that man calls on many gods, observes many kinds of rituals to get right with God, calls on many names as their gods, sets up their religions, do not in anyway change the facts stated above. Christ is the ONLY way. His name is the ONLY name God will honor. There is only ONE GOD, and Jesus Christ is His Name, the fullness of the Godhead. On the Day which He has set and is unstoppable, all these false gods are going to be exposed for what they are, all these material things we worship shall be burned away, and Jesus Christ revealed to the ENTIRE world as the One True God with whom all must deal with. (Are these scriptural enough for you so far ?).

2. We are a fallen race, all have sinned, there is not one man righteous, not one man who has sinned, but the man Jesus Christ, not one man whose works of righteousnesses can get him ingratiated with his God. (Scriptural so far ?)

3. Man was scattered over all the earth, and then man divided into tribes, governments, administrations, rulers, subjects, languages, cultures, creeds and religions (Scriptural so far ?).

4. That God has pronounced a verdict upon all mankind, elect or otherwise, all have sinned, guilty, death. The sentence to be carried out in God's own time, unstoppable, sure to come, and that He will judge all men by Christ. (Scriptural so far ?).

5. That man, through his religions and beliefs, is trying to get right with God thru a works-system that God rejects and condemns. Not to mention his outright denial of the existence of God. (Scriptural so far ?).

6. That God, in His omniscience, knew what was going to take place when He created Adam and Eve, knew about the coming Fall of man, did not predestinate this fall nor the sin of Adam and Eve, knew that as a consequence mankind will be condemned to die the second death but did not predestinate mankind to such punishment. (Scriptural so far ?).


Now we come to election and the subjects of election:

7. That God, in His mercy, elected a definite number of individuals from fallen man unto salvation, predestinating these individuals to be conformed to the image of His only begotten Son, writing their names in the Lamb's book of life from before the foundation of the world, giving these individuals as gifts to the Son, as His bride, and giving His Son a gift to them, their husband. (Scriptural, so far ?).

8. That God will regenerate these elect, cause their spiritual rebirth, not by blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the will of God, and that God the Holy Spirit is the One who regenerates independent of means such as gospel preachers, gospel preaching, or the Bible.

9. That the election of these individuals depended entirely on the will of God, on His mercy, and on Himself, not on their foreseen response to the message of the Gospel, not on their foreseen response to the Name of Christ, not on their geographical/b] location, not on their social status, not on their skin color, not on their language, not on their creed, not on their political views or inclinations, not on their professions, not on their mental capacities, not on their ages. (Scriptural so far ?).

10. That the salvation of these individuals is an obligation God imposed upon Himself, having elected them to such salvation, and which God alone secured in the Person of His Only Begotten Son, thru the virgin birth and everything that it connotes, living a sinless life, obeying the Law fully on their behalf, even the requirement of Faith, becoming sin for them, taking upon Himself the punishment and wrath of God, washing their sins away thru His shed blood, FINISHING the eternal salvation and effecting the reconciliation to God of all the elect from the past, during His time on earth, and after His ascenscion to heaven, even those that were to be born in the future. (Scriptural so far ?).

11. That in creation He shared His glory with no one, in eternity past, present, or future, which He inhabits, He alone is God, in Time where we are, He alone is God and shares His glory with no one, and in the work of Redemption He was alone and shared His glory with no man or no means. He will bring His elect home, because that is His declared purpose, and He will do it on His own, no thanks to anyone or anything. (Scriptural, so far ?)

Answer if you will, ignore if you will, call me boring and ignorant if you will (then say it is nothing personal), all I say back is: thank you.

On my next post, why there will be those in Heaven who never heard the gospel, and why babies, and those with the intellect of 3 year olds in bodies of thirty year olds are all of them subject to God's sovereign elective mercy.

In one of your posts you asked, am I sure I'm Primitive Baptist ? As sure as I know you are not.

 

Dear Bro. Dallas:

You are referring of course to Galatians 3:6-9 which took place in Genesis 18:18 and Genesis 22:18.

To be honest, I have not done adequate study on these scriptures and how they relate to Spiritual regeneration of the elect, but, yes, they do.

Give me a little time, and I will both pm and post here.

Thank you, and by the way, you all have a very interesting thread on the 'Prince' of Preachers in that other list server. The exchanges are so educating and truly brethren like I am content to just sit in the dark and lurk, soaking all the information and checking them against the Scriptures.

Catch you later.

 

Why there will be those in Heaven who never heard the gospel........

Because as stated in a previous post, God chose His people from before the foundation of the world, wrote their names on the book of Life, on the basis of His mercy and His choice alone without respect to position in life, to creed, to color, to social status, response to the Gospel, conversion, and such like. He sent His Son to redeem these chosen, and these people are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Christ


.... and why babies, and those with the intellect of 3 year olds in bodies of thirty year olds are all of them subject to God's sovereign elective mercy.

1. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (Romans 3:23);

2. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. (Psalm 51:5);

3. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12).

None of these scriptures exclude babies and those with mental incapacities from being born with the nature of sin in them which results in the acts of sin. On the other hand, no scriptures on the predestination and salvation of the elect makes them exclusively for heaven or hell either, therefore, these classes of people are subject to God's sovereign elective mercy just like everybody else.

They MUST be saved under the name of Jesus, washed in the blood of Jesus, go thru the only Door set by heaven which is Jesus, pass thru the only Way which is Jesus, redeemed by Jesus, regardless of where they were born, and in what circumstances of life, which have no bearing whatsoever in their eternal destinies.

 

Theo said:

 

They do, too, only they don't know it yet.

 

Well, theo, look at it this way. The reason you don't think you believe the Bible teaches Conditional Time Salvation is because you call it another name. Perhaps, you call it conditional blessings, others call it holy living, separated living, etc., etc.

The idea is that the word salvation in the Bible is not always used in the context of eternal salvation which is purely God's work, no partnership and no help, in any form, manner, or means, from any man. Eternal salvation was secured by Jesus Christ and Him alone for His people, whether they know it or not, whether they believe it or not. That is the good news. The gospel, if you prefer. That salvation is of the Lord, from the Lord, by the Lord, and is a reality now for those whom He elected unto such salvation.

Now, timely salvation, is conditioned on believers' obedience to God's commands, Galatians 6:7 says that what a man sows, that is what he reaps. God in the Old Testament laid a set of choices for His people, Israel, choices between blessings and curses, blessings and chastisements, death and life, and he urged them to choose life (that is, obedience).

Paul urges Christians to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, also to submit themselves to the rulers, to live peaceably with all men, and such teachings that have nothing at all to do with one's eternal salvation, but can definitely be one's salvation from the ways of this 'wicked generation'.

Now, I don't know if you teach such principles in your church (I hope they are taught), but I do know that in many Baptist churches, these same principles are taught and known by many names such as the ones I cited above.

The majority of Primitive Baptists call it Conditional Time Salvation to differentiate it from Unconditional Eternal Salvation.

Some among our people, like the brother whose work you referred us to in a very 'Christianlike'
and 'non-arrogant' manner, get very emotional about the word 'salvation', as some non-PB's do, but I assure you, he has a right to differ with us, for as long as he will not present the finished work of Christ in an unscriptural way.

 

Well, Theo, you've seen the anti- side of conditional time salvation, (I take it you did read it, didn't you, before you threw it at us reminding us that that came from one of our own), so now, here's a link to the pro- side.

LINK 1

LINK 2

 

But, Brother Dallas, allow me to ask: Why is it that you think the elect must in some form or another, hear the gospel ?

Is it to effect regeneration for them ? Is it to convert them ? Is it to save ? Or is it to educate ?

I have no opposition to preaching the gospel as somebody in this board has charged once, neither do I have opposition to the idea of the elect hearing the gospel, wherever or whenever man in his limitations can take it to the elect.

My objection is to the purpose.