Featured Is Election Salvation ?

I don't care what Calvin says about the text; I rarely read the man's work--though I'm familiar with it. I have deep disagreements with some of the things Calvin writes and I believe him to be desperately wrong in some areas of ecclesiology, baptism, etc. I care what the text says and what it means.

I'm a "Calvinist" who came to "Calvinism" having never read Calvin. Learning Greek and reading the text with the nuance supplied by the Greek is what showed me the so-called "Doctrines of Grace."

The Archangel

 

It seems odd to me to hear a Calvinist place "textual study" above the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Calvinist believe that if it comes to pass it has been ordained by God? So am I to believe that God wanted His children to be misled by "whosoever" for some four hundred years before bringing "new and improved" textual study into the conversation?

 

Let me answer your question with a question:

Did God want Joseph to be in Egypt?

Now, to comment on the above quote....

There is no necessary separation between "textual study" and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches us through God's word, not outside of it. Now, it's possible, the Holy Spirit can give impulsion, recall a passage of Scripture, etc. But, what He does is not "inspired" and it is not to be taken as something through which we can contradict or ignore the text of Scripture.

Your question about the "whosoever misleading" is interesting... If we were to take your question to it's logical conclusion, God would have to give all revelation at once, instead of giving it progressively from Genesis through Revelation. As Paul describes, Scripture is profitable for a number of things--all of the pursuits thereof require study of the text. Given our fallen condition, it is a bit presumptuous to suggest that we'll all get everything right always. We know in part now, but we all long for the day when the Author will tell us everything face-to-face.

The Archangel

 

I tend to keep it simple for I am just a simple sheep. I trust God has given us a very, very adequate English translation of Scripture which has brought millions to Christ and has taught millions sanctification for hundreds of years.

 

Translations are good, no doubt. But translations are neither perfect nor infallible. To find the meaning the text--and, therefore, God--is conveying, there are times when only the original language will do.

There is a reason, after all, that a rigorous course of Seminary education requires work in and facility with the biblical languages.

The Archangel

 

Here is what I'm toying with doing. I have been sporting a straggly beard for the last month or so and I also haven't cut my hair. I have some really ripped sweat pants, old holy sneakers & a old hoody sweat shirt. I think I want to dress like that and go sit out near a Calvin and by a non Calvin one....probably the ones that rejected me when I called and wrote about joining them. Maybe I will pan handle outside the church and/or walk into them.....wonder what kinda reception I will receive......wouldn't that answer the question once and for all?

 

With all due respect...how do I know you really get the intricacies of the language or that any seminary trained student has full knowledge of all the intricacies of the language?

 

I find it interesting that God did not give any instruction in the Scripture for it to be seminary "scholars" who preach and teach the Scripture. It has it's place, and some value I suppose, but it is ultimately the Holy Spirit doing the teaching in those who pray and study what has been written for us. After all the great seminaries churning out "scholars" we still have all of the same divisions among such "scholars" as found in the ordinary laymen groups.

 

I like it! :thumbsup:

 

2,000 years of translations are wrong and Archangel's translation is right.
Is there any need to check his Greek? No.
When the "I am right and everyone is wrong" attitude is presented, something is wrong.

 

It most definitely was for a select group. Don't you read your own proof texts? The serpent was lifted up for those who were bitten. Period. Those NOT bitten felt no need to go look upon the brazen serpent. It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for Christ:

“They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

It's like salzer mtn's signature:

"The Only Thing That Can Stop A Screaming Conscious Is A Right View Of The Atonement".

It's the Spirit working within His children that blesses them to have this 'screaming conscious' that drives them to Christ. Yea, how very 'fortunate' they are:

"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

And even beyond that, the serpent was not lifted up for the Egyptians, or the Greeks, or the Assyrians, or the Babylonians, or the Persians, or the Italians, etc., the serpent was lifted up for Israel only.

 

Yes, and as I posted, here is what the Scriptures (not the biased Calvinist) says:

[FONT=&quot]Numbers 21:8,9.... it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live... if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.[/FONT]

The healing from the poisonous snakebite was not for a select group....

You are reading into the text. It doesn't say anything about people not bitten:
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.[/FONT]
Who was not bitten? What were their names?

Are you quoting Buddha. This has nothing to do with the text.

Again, this is not in Numbers 21. You playing fast and loose with the Scriptures. Are you having trouble with Biblical exposition?

Now you are outside of the context. Again you have trouble with context.
Obviously other nations were not given supernatural eyesight to see the serpent. They didn't have comic book heroes in that day like superman. Sorry to disappoint. Stay within the context.

The text clearly says:
every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
You either believe it or you don't.

 

Man, you have one very shallow man centered take on the scriptures. I think I'll just go back to not engaging you.

 

It is not shallow at all. It is Bible exposition. Take a passage of Scripture. Go through it verse by verse. See what the passage is teaching. Don't allow previous pre-conceived ideas to affect your interpretation of the passage. What does the passage itself teach? That is not shallow. That is what is expected of us as we read the Bible and study it.

 

Numbers 21:8,9.... it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live... if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

You've got the gall to accuse me of pre-conceived ideas. The text clearly identifies 'whosoever' as:

"every one that is bitten"

NOT:

"every one"

...as your shallow pre-conceived man-centered tunnel vision dominates you to espouse.

 

Then in John, applying the "everyone" who looks" parallel, this is what Jesus says:
[FONT=&quot]John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/FONT]

Everyone that believes in Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.
We all are bitten by the serpent, Satan. We all are in sin. We all need salvation. We all need Christ. We all need to look to Him and be saved. This is the parallel. There is no one outside of Christ that can be saved--no one.

 

Yes. That is the magnificent profound 'statement of fact' of Jn 3:16.

You are again doing your own evil additions and creating another gospel. That's not at all what the type conveys. Everyone was NOT bitten by the serpents.

'We all'. I guarantee you those who were NOT bitten were NOT saying 'we all' need to go look on the serpent. Again, this is only your evil additions to the story to create another gospel.

 

It was an exact quote. Word for word. Here it is again:
[FONT=&quot]John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/FONT]
--Do you believe the Word of God?
This verse follows verses 13,14 which speak about the serpent being lifted up in the wilderness. It is the specific application.

You are reading into the text. I have challenged you already. Who was not bitten? You tell me. It is your turn. Here is what the text says:
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.[/FONT]

A commentary on Numbers 21:8

The commentary is John Calvin's commentary. You disagree with Calvin himself. How do you call yourself a Calvinist. He obviously does not believe in Limited Atonement--not from what I read in John 3:14-16, and not from Numbers 21:8.

Jesus refers to himself as the one being lifted up. He said:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. no man comes to the Father but by me."
We all have been bitten by the serpent. We all need to go through Christ. There is no other way. If my way is evil, then you are saying that about Christ as well. Shame!

[FONT=&quot]Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/FONT]

 

??? I've never disputed that 'statement of fact'. Only that 'whosoever' is not the correct rendering, but in reality, even that doesn't change it into the invitation that you man-centered religionists try to make it out to be.

Most likely more so than you DHK.

It's a type, not an application.

Are you dense or are you intentionally trying to add to the text? NOT EVERYONE was bitten! NOT EVERYONE felt a need to go gaze upon the brazen serpent. Only those in fear of dying.

I'm not a Calvinist and for certain I don't follow him. You care more about his commentary than I do.

OK. I've never disputed that fact and never will.

That's NOT what the type is conveying. There is something other than that within the natural man that is drawing these to Christ, as in v 21, God has already wrought within those 'that come to the light'. They don't do it of their own accord. They're COMPELLED, PERSUADED, of their need to come to Christ. One must FIRST be born from above before one can enter or even see the kingdom of GOD!

You hypocrite, you make no bones about slanting everyone else that doesn't agree with your views as preaching another gospel and sending people to hell when you are the one intentionally distorting the scriptures to create your own version of the gospel and put an impossible unbearable yoke upon the backs of the Saints.

Don't really know and not interested in what you think this bloviating has to do with 'those that were bitten', which was NOT everyone.

 

Where did you get that from, Archangel?
Now provide the evidence. You have 2,000 years of transational evidence against you. It is the "I am right and everyone else is wrong" attitude, but "I can't tell you why, and I can't give you the evidence." You really expect us to believe that??

Then you would accept John 3:13-18 as written, without question, not questioning the "whosoevers" that are mentioned throughout the passage. They need no re-defining.

Jesus stated the type in verses 13,14.
Then he applied it to himself in verse 15.
[FONT=&quot]John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/FONT]
The word "that" begins the application.

Everyone is a sinner in need of a Savior. That is what the "type" shows, and is intended to show. Look unto the one lifted up and be healed. Whosoever looks upon the one lifted up shall be healed. Whosoever looks upon Jesus shall be healed.
If you don't look you won't be healed.
If you don't believe you won't be saved. Christ was clear about that:

[FONT=&quot]John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]

You talk like a Calvinist.

Good.

That is your "Calvinism." It is your prejudicial bias, your preconceived idea. You can't read the passage without bias. That is not what the passage says. It says nothing of the kind. So, you are just wrong.
It simply says: Whosoever believes... and that is all.
Why complicate things?

First, It seems like you can make statements with impunity, and then act as if you are emotionally scarred forever if one returns the favor. So who is the hypocrite?
Here is what you said:

"You are again doing your own evil additions and creating another gospel."
--So you are allowed to call what I believe in "evil," "another gospel," but if I return the same, and you cry: foul, hypocrite, etc. etc.

Second, I do not intentionally pervert the gospel. IMO, you do. For the gospel to be effective it must be received (John 1:12), believed (Acts 16:31), repentance (17:30). IOW, there must be human responsibility.
If there is no human responsibility, there is no salvation.

The one lifted up was Christ. We agree.
The one on the ground biting was a serpent causing hurt and pain. That is like Satan today. The Serpent throughout the Bible is representative of Satan. I simply gave you a couple of supporting scriptures.