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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Rippon, Aug 29, 2014.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    :thumbsup::thumbsup: I like that...I have never heard that hymn before.
     
    #21 JonC, Aug 31, 2014
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    It's a classic. I have sung it for years --20 or so. I have it memorized.
     
    #22 Rippon, Sep 1, 2014
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Great Hymn! :godisgood:God is first in all things.........
     
    #23 steaver, Sep 1, 2014
  4. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    God in His sovereignty does ALL the saving, people do not save themselves. For those capable of making a decision, God has given a freewill, God is sovereign, He is allowed to do this, this does not make God inept. Calvinist would take God's sovereignty away at this point, not allowing God to implement any such responsibility upon His creation. They would say 'God, you are not allowed to give anyone a choice through freewill, we will not have it'.
     
    #24 steaver, Sep 1, 2014
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Do you really take all the words of that hymn to heart Steaver? Do you agree that you did not choose God? Do you believe that the Lord ordained all those in Him from of old -- i.e. from before the foundation of the world.
     
    #25 Rippon, Sep 1, 2014
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I did not say God foresaw individuals, I said according to Calvinism, He chose foreseen individuals, i.e. before creation. Strike one.

    Here we have the usual denial of Calvinism by a Calvinist.

    Here is the published position of Calvinism:
    Thus the reconciliation (the removal of their guilt) does not, repeat does not occur when they believe, according to Calvinism, but 1900 years ago when Christ died for their sins. Strike two.

    Here we have the false premise that Christ dying for all men, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for all men, actually saves all men. But only Calvinists make this false charge. In order to be saved, a person must "receive" the reconciliation. When God transfers a person spiritually into Christ, they undergo the circumcision of Christ and their sin burden is removed. So when Christ died for all men, He provided the means of salvation for all men, but not all men receive the reconciliation provided by Christ's death.

    Strike three.

    Once again a Calvinist has offered a defense using false premises.
     
    #26 Van, Sep 1, 2014
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  7. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    The disagreement is not in 'did God choose?'. The issue is 'why did God choose in His foreknowledge?'.
     
    #27 steaver, Sep 1, 2014
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Answer: It pleased Him to do so. It is to the praise of His glorious grace that He has done so.
     
    #28 Rippon, Sep 1, 2014
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Amen! Do you believe that it is impossible for God to know the decisions a person will make before they ever find themselves in a decision making place or make them?
     
    #29 steaver, Sep 1, 2014
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I can't help but to read this as saying God commands the non-elect to believe a lie, and they are guilty for not believing it.
     
    #30 JonC, Sep 1, 2014
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think it is that God commands all to repent, but that only those He will saved will be enabled to do that, as all others remain willingly in their sin states...

    None who are found to be remaing in their sins and still gulity will be saying to God I had no chose, as they kept deciding the wrong way!
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Sep 1, 2014
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. The world is condemned for it's rejection of the Light. It was, ultimately, a choice where we all choose the wrong option, but God draws a people out of us idiots. But the basis of that "choice" was real.
     
    #32 JonC, Sep 1, 2014
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  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have read and reread Dagg's quote and cannot come up with any such interpretation. Please tell me your reasons for saying the above.
     
    #33 Rippon, Sep 3, 2014
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    JonC seems to be listening too much to the protests of Skan of it not being fair that God already judged all guilty in Adam, as if we have no reason to even try to be accountible to God!

    As if iy was a rigged deal from the start...
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Sep 3, 2014
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    ;-). Funny. Not at all true, but funny - I gave you my reason and opened it up for your explanation. Your response was silence on the issue ... While you and I probably agree more in our views, at least Skan engages the topic. You just muddy the waters with questions you never engage, offering false assertions rather than answers.

    I have not kept up, BTW, with Skan. I do not agree with him, which is fine. I understand what he is saying because I took the time to listen to his argument. Although we disagree, I can respect Skan for honestly expressing and holding his view. Unfortunately, at this time I cannot say the same of you. Don't assume, if you want to know if I believe in "original sin" or whether we are not we are already judged guilty "under Adam" then just ask. My answer is yes, I do believe this. But we are not condemned for our sins, but our Sin. Again, how do you interpret John 3 in regards to the world being condemned (we may disagree, but at least you can provide a basis for your understanding and not rely on Rippon to make your argument)?

    Stop playing Robin to Rippon's Batman and let's talk.
     
    #35 JonC, Sep 3, 2014
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  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    All of us born after the Fall have been born into the likness of his image, Adam, and the same judgement God pronounced on him also got imputed to all of us...

    So God, problem with while someone might be able to say, wrongly, that someone other than jesus just might be able to keep the law well enough to merit salvation and right standing before the Lord, that still hasn't dealt with the judgement God pronounced upon all of us now found by Him to be in Adam...

    So God finds all guilty of breaking His law by being in Adam,and by choosing to commit sin...

    That is why must be placed into Christ, as then we have imputed to us the rightousness that none of us would have based upon our own efforts and merits!
     
    #36 Yeshua1, Sep 3, 2014
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Are we made in the image of Adam or God?

    What do you mean that we are “imputed” righteousness?

    If you will clarify those two issues I would appreciate it. Other than that, I think we are in agreement (although I am not sure what it has to do with this thread).
     
    #37 JonC, Sep 3, 2014
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  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I'll answer this for him...

    We are made in the image of Adam...see Seth in Gen. 5:3...Adam was in the image of God, and we're made in Adam's image..
     
    #38 convicted1, Sep 4, 2014
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you, Convicted1. Sometimes we seem in agreement, but something behind our understanding something seems off. Often, I believe, our differences involve issues that we never bother asking. This is one difference, I suppose, in my understanding and the contemporary Reformed church.

    I interpret Genesis 5 as giving an account of the descendants of Adam (God created Adam, Seth descended from Adam, etc) rather than indicating that men after Adam do not bear the image of God. I don’t see the disobedience of the Fall destroying God’s image. My view is that image of God continues with each line. We are still made in the image of God. So although we both agree with “Total Depravity” and “original sin,” there may be a bit of distinct difference in our views. I appreciate your reply because I would have taken for granted that adherents to TULIP held we are made in God's image.

    I am trying to understand Yesuah1's post...and how it relates as a response to mine. While I have also believe in the depravity of men, man's sin nature, etc., I thought by his reply that he was linking this somehow to my question (that he was actually answering the question I asked and he quoted).

    Yesuah1 - What is, then, the “Calvinistic” answer to Genesis 9:6 (the prohibition of murder based on man being made in the image of God…if indeed men are no longer made in the image of God)?
     
    #39 JonC, Sep 4, 2014
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  20. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    For one to follow this line of logic, one would have to carry it through with each individual ever made, thus, one could not say we are all made in the image of Adam either. I would have to be seen as made in the image of my earthly father William, then to argue 'yes, but we all go back to the image of Adam' would then logically have to follow that we all go back to the image of God.

    I don't know if someone led you to believe such a pov was part of believing TULIP or if you came to this on your own, either way, I find it a wrong conclusion. I suppose it would not hurt anything to say we are made in the image of Adam or William in my case, depends on the context of the conversation, but this is a half truth so to speak, we are all ultimately made in the image of God. Genesis 5 does not nullify Genesis 1. Both are true.
     
    #40 steaver, Sep 4, 2014
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