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Featured The Great blessing of the biblical teaching of Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Nov 1, 2014.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    :laugh: Is this for me or was you looking in the mirror when you wrote this? God bless your heart! :praying:

    Wonderful advice brother! Already been at it for 18 years, but it is always good to hear another brother giving great advice! :thumbs: Now as far as this debate board goes, I'm probably here for the same reason you are, so, stupid is as stupid does.

    Amen! And we are placed in the body of Christ and are instructed to be governed by a structured environment even though it will be governed by flawed men. How is your obedience to Christ in this area? Blessings!
     
    #121 steaver, Nov 18, 2014
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :applause::wavey::thumbs::applause:

    relevant question and observation
     
    #122 Iconoclast, Nov 19, 2014
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    No mirror.....I'm looking directly at you
    Please dont speculate, tell me exactly just what that reason is.

    When I find one competent (and obedient to Christ), I will let you know....till then I will continue my search. Either that....or I will build one myself (with Gods Help)
     
    #123 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2014
  4. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    This thread has devolved from the 'Divine teaching of election' to 'Dumping on Brother Steve'. Can we please get back to the OP?
     
    #124 convicted1, Nov 20, 2014
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Same as you :thumbs:

    I was once were you are, going to build my own church and then it will be perfect in doctrine and practice! I had to humble myself, of course after God slapped some humbling upon me Himself. Maybe you are chosen by God to build a church, if you are then it will be done, nothing wring with that. Just be certain your heart is in the right place, a very humble place, lest you build a church upon a faulty reason.

    Blessings!
     
    #125 steaver, Nov 20, 2014
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    When you say 'Divine teaching of election', what truly runs through your mind? Calvinism's applications? Or Scripture?
     
    #126 steaver, Nov 20, 2014
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    okay....
    The second Helvetic conf.

    Chapter X: Of the Predestination of God and the Election of the Saints

    1. [1.] God Has Elected Us Out of Grace. God has from the beginning freely, and of his mere grace, without any respect to men, predestinated or elected the saints, whom he will save in Christ, according to the saying of the apostle, “And he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4); and again, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and the grace, which was given unto us, through Jesus Christ, before the world was, but is now made manifest by the appearance of our Saviour Christ Jesus” (2 Tim 1:9-10).

    2. [2.] We Are Elected or Predestinated in Christ. Therefore, though not for any merit of ours, yet not without a means, but in Christ, and for Christ, did God choose us; and they who are now ingrafted into Christ by faith, the same also were elected. But such as are without Christ were rejected, according to the saying of the apostle, “Prove yourselves, whether ye be in the faith. Know ye not your own selves, how that that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobate?” (2 Cor 13:5).

    3. [3.] We Are Elected for a Definite Purpose. To conclude, the saints are chosen in Christ by God unto a sure end, which end the apostle declares when he says, “He hath chosen us in him, that we should be holy and without blame before him through love; who has predestinated us to be adopted through Jesus Christ unto himself, for the praise of his glorious grace” (Eph 1:4-6).

    4. [4.] We Are to Have a Good Hope for All. And although God knows who are his, and now and then mention is made of the small number of the elect, yet we must hope well of all, and not rashly judge any man to be a reprobate: for Paul says to the Philippians, “I thank my God for you all” (now he speaks of the whole Church of the Philippians), “that ye are come into the fellowship of the Gospel; and I am persuaded that he that hath begun this work in you will perform it as becometh me to judge of you all” (Phil 1:3-7).

    5. Whether Few Are Elect. And when the Lord was asked whether there were few that should be saved, he does not answer and tell them that few or many should be saved or damned, but rather he exhorts every man to “strive to enter in at the strait gate” (Luke 13:23-24): as if he should say, It is not for you rashly to inquire of these matters, but rather to endeavor that you may enter into heaven by the strait way.

    6. [5.] What in This Matter Is to Be Condemned. Wherefore we do not allow of the wicked speeches of some who say, Few are chosen, and seeing I know not whether I am in the number of these few, I will defraud my nature of her desires. Others there are who say, If I be predestinated and chosen of God, nothing can hinder me from salvation, which is already certainly appointed for me, whatsoever I do at any time; but if I be in the number of the reprobate, no faith or repentance will help me, seeing the decree of God can not be changed: therefore all teachings and admonitions are to no purpose. Now, against these men the saying of the apostle makes much, “The servants of God must be apt to teach, instructing those that are contrary-minded, proving if God at any time will give them repentance, that they may come to amendment out of the snare of the devil, which are taken of him at his pleasure” (2 Tim 2:24-26).

    7. Admonitions Are Not in Vain Because Salvation Proceeds from Election. Besides, Augustine also teaches, that both the grace of free election and predestination, and also wholesome admonitions and doctrines, are to be preached (De dono perseverantiae 14ff.).

    [6.] Whether We Are Elected. We therefore condemn those who seek otherwhere than in Christ whether they be chosen from all eternity, and what God has decreed of them before all beginning.

    8. For men must hear the Gospel preached, and believed it. If thou believest, and are in Christ, thou mayest undoubtedly hold that thou are elected. For the Father has revealed unto us in Christ the eternal sentence of his predestination, as we have even now showed out of the apostle, in 2 Tim 1:9-10.

    [7.] This is therefore above all to be taught and well weighed, what great love of the Father toward us in Christ is revealed. We must hear what the Lord does daily preaches unto us in his Gospel: how he calls and says: “Come unto me all ye that labor and are burdened, and I will refresh you” (Matt 11:28); and, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16); also, “It is not the will of your Father that any of these little ones should perish” (Matt 18:14).
     
    #127 Iconoclast, Nov 20, 2014
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Yea well that's not an answer....you continue to deflect.
    I have no wish to build my own church brother, but when faced with a void area and in the very community I grew up in, what can you do...its quite a condundrum (sic) . This is an exercise in faith Steve. Nothing more and nothing less. This is when the believer cry's out to Jesus.
     
    #128 Earth Wind and Fire, Nov 21, 2014
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Look, both sides of the debate hold to some sort of election, and elect of God. Either some hold to the "corporate view", the "foreseen faith" view, or the "eternal view", in that God chose us before, or from, the foundation of the world. But most people do hold to some form of election....
     
    #129 convicted1, Nov 21, 2014
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:
     
    #130 convicted1, Nov 21, 2014
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Shouldn't both sides hold to the biblical one? Elect according to the foreknowledge of God. God knows all things that we ever be, this includes all choices made by His creation.
     
    #131 steaver, Nov 21, 2014
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    fore·knowl·edge
    fôrˈnäləj/
    noun
    noun: foreknowledge
    1. awareness of something before it happens or exists.



     
    #132 steaver, Nov 21, 2014
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    All of them that hold one of those three views view theirs as biblical...
     
    #133 convicted1, Nov 21, 2014
  14. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    That's not God's foreknowledge. You knew what crops you'd reap because you planted them. Every plant My Father hath not planted is rooted up...

    I borrowed the bolded from Brother KYR...
     
    #134 convicted1, Nov 21, 2014
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Changes nothing, foreknowledge means God knows before it has happened in real time. As for the bolded - it leaves open as to the why? Yes, God plants and they shall bring forth fruit because they have been planted in Jesus Christ. Why did God plant them in Jesus Christ? "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    No one can rebirth themselves, no one even knows what a rebirth is until it has happened unto them, this action is God's alone to perform to all who call upon the name of the Lord. Believe, and thou shalt be saved. It's so plain and simple, why must you complicate things so.
     
    #135 steaver, Nov 21, 2014
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Romans 8:28-30 may help us in this discussion:
    A couple of observations:
    1. V. 28 Paul speaks of THE called.
    2. V. 29 Paul refers to those WHOM He foreknew, not WHAT.
    3. V. 30 Paul says those whom he foreknew He predestinated.
    4. V. 30 Paul says those whom he foreknew and those he predestinated are the same people.
    5. V. 30 Paul also says the predestned and the called are the same people

    In this context, foreknowledge is not WHAT God foreknew, but WHOM. This suggests that God was active, not reactive. Foreknowledge and foreseen faith, then, are not the same thing. This suggests to me that God foreknows WHOM as a result of His choice before the foundation of the world. For God to foresee faith and then elect has it backwards. If that's the case, didn't we who have exercised saving faith elect ourselves?

    Just some thoughts to stir the pot a bit.
     
    #136 Tom Butler, Nov 21, 2014
  17. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #137 convicted1, Nov 22, 2014
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well WHOM He foreknew did NOT Exist yet, so He had to Foresee something!!!!!!! Whether it be Whom or What, either way....................
     
    #138 steaver, Nov 22, 2014
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    That would deny God"s omniscience....and must be rejected completely.

    18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

    A wrong understanding Of Divine Foreknowledge as used in Scripture leads to this repeated error. Tom Butler posted clearly:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
    #139 Iconoclast, Nov 22, 2014
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God was active in teh saving process, as he chose to have Jesus death atone for those whom he desired to be saved by it...

    Again, the basic problem comes down to...

    on WHAT basis did God chose to have His own elected out beforehand?

    Based u[on Him choosing them, electing them, so would come to faith in jesus to get saved, or by Him knowing what we would chose to do?
     
    #140 Yeshua1, Nov 22, 2014
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