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Featured Abbreviated Word Study, G2564, Kaleo

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV

    "Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called..."

    This has nothing to do with an invitation. Look at the following verse: "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things to shame the strong."

    God chose. He did not merely invite --He chose.
    "If an unbeliever invites you to a meal..."

    Do you have the capacity to discern the difference between the calling of God and an unbeliever 'inviting' a believer to have a meal? Can't you tell the difference? If you can't then you need to actually study the Word of God instead of doing your novel "word studies" which are demonstrating your errant theology.
    "For I am the least of the apostles and do not even desire to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

    This usage of the word 'call' has nothing to do with the heavenly calling. Paul feels unworthy to even be named as an apostle because of the terrible persecution of the church which he orchestrated before his conversion.

    The passages that I have been highlighting have to do with the effectual call --not an earthly invitation or anything else.

    Look at Romans 8:28 :called according to His purpose

    Note Romans 8:30 : predestined --called --justified--glorified. That's the unbreakable golden chain of redemption.

    To fiddle around with any form of the word 'call' as it has been used in the passages I have been illustrating is to bring disorder and confusion.
     
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    This is another post emphasizing how the majority of translations hold to some form of the word call in the following passages. To step out of the mainstream with the important doctrine of the calling is a departure from orthodox biblical teaching.

    Galatians

    1:6 : the one who called you (all versions have called you with the exception of the YLT which has who did call you)

    1:15 : God...called me by his grace (all versions have called me)

    5:8 : the one who calls you (the various versions are split between calls, calling, and called)

    5:13 : called to be free ( all versions have called)

    Ephesians

    1:18 : he has called you (the various versions are split between call, calls, called and calling)

    4:1 : live a life worthy of the calling you have received (most versions, i.e. NIV, NLT, ESV, NASB, HCSB, NET, ASV, Darby, ERV, WEB and YLT have calling)

    4:4 : you were called to one hope when you were called (the ESV has called, call. Most versions, such as the NASB, KJV, HCSB, ISV, NET have called, calling)
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The Greek word being studied in this thread is kaleo. Mr. Rippon has posted several verses where the word does not even appear. This is an obvious attempt to derail the thread, clearly in violation of forum rules.
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    And I will repeat my point that the vast majority of translations use some form of the word call for Kaleo in the passages I cite.

    Colossians 3:15 : called to peace (all versions use the word called)

    1 Thess.

    2:12 : who calls you into his kingdom and glory (most versions use calls and the rest use called. The Weymouth alone employs a different word : inviting)

    4:7 : For God did not call us to be impure (the NIV,NET and YLT use call. The remaining ones use called)

    5:24 : The one who calls you is faithful (all versions use calls except for YLT which has calling)

    2 Thess.

    2:14 : He called you to this through our gospel (all versions use called here except for YLT which uses call)
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Does kaleo appear in Ephesians 1:18, or Ephesians 4:1 or Ephesians 4:4? Nope. Anyone who pays any attention to Mr. Rippon' posts is naive.

    How many different Greek words does the NIV translate as call? 6? or 9? or 12? or 15? or more? God inspired the usage of each of those different words, but Mr. Rippon seems to think accuracy, fidelity, and transparency are served by translated them all into just one English word. Fiddlesticks.
     
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    You are confused. Kaleo is in both Ephesians 4:1 and 4:4. Do a word study and you will find out. Or do you even know how to do a word study? :)
    As I have shown, the NIV does not stand alone among translations. The overwhelming translation of kaleo in the New Testament is translated as some form of the English word call in nearly all occasions in all Bible versions.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews

    5:4 : called by God : NIV,NLT,ESV,NASB,HCSB
    called to it by God : NET,ISV
    called of God
    called by God

    9:15 : those who are called :NIV,ESV,HCSB,NET and WEB
    all who are called : NLT
    those who have been called : NASB, Weymouth
    those who were called
    those who are called
    which are called
    the called
    those called

    11:8 : when called : NIV,ESV, NASB, HCSB, ISV, NET
    being called : Darby, Weymouth and YLT
    _________________________________________________________
    Yep, the use of called is well-nigh universal in these passages. Using words other than called would be odd.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Mr Rippon is correct, kaleo does appear in Ephesians 4:1 and 4:4, as does another Greek word also translated as call in some form. He did not mention he was wrong and therefore unable to do a word study at Ephesians 1:18. Note how he edited, without ellipsis, my reference to Ephesians 1:18. He continues to post edited quotes that do not actually reflect my statements.

    Showing that modern translations fail to translate kaleo concordantly, using the same or similar English word or phrase for each of Kaleo's four means bolsters my view, not yours. The NIV not only translates kaleo using at least 8 different English words, but translates at least 15 different Greek words into the same English word. The combined effect is to make the original text invisible to the reader, missing entirely the translation goal of making the translation as transparent as possible to the original text.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have been concentrating on the historic Christian doctrine of the call of God. I have demonstrated that English Bible versions, both old and new translate Kaleo uniformly.
    Your sentence is puzzling. I understand the first phrase but not the second. You're saying that the NIV translates Kaleo using eight different words. Then you say it translates 15 different Greek words into the same English word. What? You are no longer speaking of Kaleo? It uses 15 different Greek words --what other Greek words? How is that relevant to the discussion of Kaleo?
    The combined effect of your confused thoughts and strange agenda makes the reader of your posts wonder what in the world goes on inside your noggin. ;-)
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Several places where you cited "call" in some form or another was not kaleo, but some other Greek word. The four meanings of kaleo have been rendered invisible to you, because other meanings and other words with yet still other meanings have all been translated as some form of call. So simple a cave man could understand.
     
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have cited 22 usages of Kaleo in the New Testament.
    These were taken from :
    1 Cor. : 8
    Gal. : 4
    Eph. 2
    Col. : 1
    1 Thess. : 3
    2 Thess. : 1
    Heb. : 3

    In 1 Cor. 1:1 and 1:2 the Greek word was Kletos, which is from the same root meaning divinely selected.

    In 1 Cor. 1:26 and Eph. 1:18 the Greek word was Klesis, which always means a divine call.

    I cited the fact that some form of the word call was used overwhelmingly for every single case --even those four from Kletos and Klesis.

    So on 26 occasions the overwhelming consensus of a wide gamut of Bible translations --some form of the word call was used. Anything deviating from that nearly universal English usage should be seen for what it is -- a theological novelty.
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes, your devotion to the obviously flawed one size fits all tradition is a novelty. Kaleo has a range of four different meanings, and thus should be translated in ways that convey those differing meanings. Otherwise accuracy, clarity, fidelity and transparency are forfeited.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who invited you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

    Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and instructed me through His grace, was pleased

    Gal 5:8 This persuasion did not come from Him who instructs you.

    Gal 5:13 For you were instructed on freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
     
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    How can it possibly be considered a novelty when there is such a uniformity of renderings with some form of the word call in a wide range of versions both old and new? Your assertion is not supported by any facts whatsoever.
    Sorry, your agenda is in vain. You face the monumental task of convincing folks that all Bible versions are wrong and you, with absolutely no expertise in the matter, are right. Humility is a virtue that is to be prized.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    "Invited" is so off-target as to be laughable. The following is to be preferred.

    "I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel --" (NIV)

    To use "instructed" in this verse is to show your utter disregard for the passage. A much better rendering follows the traditional reading:

    "But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by his grace, was pleased" (NIV)
    You are trying to reinvent the wheel, but your efforts are futile. Take a look at a rendering which is more accurate from the NIV:

    "That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you."
    No, no, no. "Instructed" will never do. It's not just in left field, it's not even in the ball park. A far better rendering is given in the NIV.

    "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."
    [NET note: It is possible that the verb douleuete should be translated "serve one another in a humble manner" here, referring to the way in which slaves serve their masters.]
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Kaleo is often translated as invited, so the smear is baseless as usual.

    To make translation choices consistent with the contextually driven word meaning is on target, and provides greater clarity, fidelity, and transparency to the original text.

    Now a person might say "instruct" does not seem to be the contextually driven word meaning at Galatians 5:13, perhaps "transferred into freedom" comes closer to the intended message.
     
    #56 Van, Oct 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2014
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    All Scripture Cited Is From The NIV

    Some more Kaleo for all of y-o-u. Some new and some for review.

    1 Timothy 6:12 : "Fight the good fight of faith of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses."
    [All translations have called.]

    2 Timothy 1:9 : "He has saved us and called us to a holy life --not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,"
    [YLT has did call. All other translations have called.]

    1 Peter

    1:15 : "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;"
    [The NLT has chose. YLT has did call. All the other translations use called.]

    2:9 : "But you area chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
    [YLT has did call. The remainder of versions have called.]

    2:21 : "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving an example, that you should follow you should follow in his steps."
    [All translations have called.]

    3:9 : "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing.]
    [All translations have called.]

    5:10 : "And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast."
    [YLT has did call. All others have called.]

    2 Peter

    1:3 : "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his glory and goodness."
    [Weymouth has appealed. YLT has did call. All other translations have called.]

    There is a pattern here. Have you noticed? Some form of the word call is used virtually all the time among all sorts of translations. That should clue a reasonable-minded person to make a conclusion. If so many translators have almost always used some form of call in all of the above --that is weighty to most of us.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another argument for obliterating the actual word meanings of kaleo, by translating all four meanings as one word. Incredible.
    The Greek verb is erroneously yet uniformly translated as "call" and means:

    1) to speak an invitation, i.e. beckon,
    2) to name something, i.e. to call Peter the rock,
    3) to appeal to someone, i.e. call upon the name of the Lord,
    4) or metaphorically to be one who responded, i.e. "the called."

    So each time you come across the word call translating kaleo, consider which of the four meanings is intended.

    For example in 1 Timothy 6:12, when you were transferred into Christ, you obtained eternal life. So what is the idea of taking hold of that status? Are we not to live as children of God, being diligent to act like a chip off the old block, i.e. like Jesus? See 1 Timothy 6:19.
     
    #58 Van, Nov 5, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 5, 2014
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    In those eight verses the overwhelming preponderance by a wide range of Bible translators was to use some form of the word call. Perhaps the originator of this and many other misguided threads could take note that he is in the decided minority for good reason. Actual translators know how to translate --he does not.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Understanding the range of meanings is paramount. To translate all four differing meanings using the same English word (call) is without merit.

    Questions for the objective reader: Is kaleo translated as "invited?" Yes Matthew 22:3.
    Is kaleo translated as "give?" Yes Luke 1:13. (NASB)
    Is kaleo translated as "name given?" Yes Luke 2:21(NASB)
    Is kaleo translated as "summoned?" Yes Acts 4:18 (NASB)
    Is kaleo translated as "name?" Yes, Acts 7:58 (NASB)
    Is kaleo translated as "dedicated?" Yes Luke 2:23 (HCSB)
    Is kaleo translated as "traced?" Yes Romans 9:7 (HCSB)
    Is kaleo translated as "received?" Yes Ephesians 4:1 (HCSB)
    Is kaleo translated as "bid?" Yes Matthew 22:9 (KJV)

    Now about the good old NIV? Lets see in various verses we find: (1) host; (2) known as; (3) reckoned; (4) consecrated; (5) guests; (6) said to be; and (7) tell.

    If the named modern translations (plus the KJV) render kaleo 15 ways other than call, it seems other choices are well accepted. Notice that the 7 listed choices of the NIV are not found in the other translations, so just because a translation choice is not found in other translation, does not mean the choice is an affront to other translators.

    So "invited or instructed," "rely wholeheartedly," "called or named" and "transferred," present a similar range of translation choices as the NASB, HCSB, and NIV. But they provide more concordance, more clarity, more fidelity, and more transparency that the other translations. Might other choices be better in some applications? Probably. The result of study is to consider the actual meaning intended when you come across the English words sometimes translating kaleo.

    Does a "holy calling" convey the same idea as a holy vocation, holy ministry, holy field of endeavor, etc. And what is it? Something special and individually constructed just for you, or does it refer to our job as ambassadors for Christ?

    Just because the path is rocky, and we sometimes slip, stumble and fall, does not mean we should not continue to study to show ourselves approved.
     
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