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Featured Child of God....or Son of Chucky?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Oct 10, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If you were always one of his sheep, were you also in a lost/unsaved condition at same time?

    One of the Fathers, yet also not yet saved?
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Before we drift into absurdity, why not do a word study of the various meanings of the Greek word translated "son?"


     
    #22 Van, Oct 20, 2014
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  3. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn Well-Known Member

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    Either you believe the love scriptures I put up were to the whole world, none excluded or you believe those scriptures are to the elect. So do you believe God changes concerning his love in that he hates one day and loves the next ?
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I have no problem with purposed love and purposed salvation before the world began, but I have a real problem with the idea that actual salvation already occurred before the world began - Isa. 46:10-11

    I think some on here are confusing purpose with application. We were justified according to eternal purpose but we were not literally and actually justified until time and space.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :applause::thumbs:.....yes......I do not know anywhere that a goat turns into a sheep
     
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  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::applause:
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are confusing purpose with reality. Do you know anywhere anyone that is saved or justified but turns into unsaved and unjustified? However, that is equally true in regard to God's eternal purpose as according to his eternal purpose were were already saved and justified! However, that is patently false in regard to our condition in time and space. We were sheep and children of God according to His eternal purpose, but we are born into this world with a goat nature and a nature like Satan's - enmity and rebellion, and that is the essence of being a "child" of someone - you manifest his traits and character.
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost.....lk19......ezk34.......

    His sheep were lost. He seeks and saves ALL of them....

    Goats do not desire God or His word....they go from death to death.

    You did a good job refuting the PB error.
     
    #28 Iconoclast, Oct 20, 2014
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    We are born with a sin nature from the first Adam.....we are children of wrath and disobedience. .....no where are we spoken of as goats or devils.....certainly not Eze 34
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets look at this carefully:

    When we are conceived, are we sheep or goats? Sheep, i.e. the sheep. If we physically die before we are saved, then we become goats. If we are saved at some point in our physical lives, then we turn into "My sheep" from being "the sheep."

    In summary, we are all born as "the sheep." We turn into "My sheep" when saved. And if never saved, then the sheep turn into goats at death.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL are born as sinners, and as such, all would be in the Kingdom of satan, and NOT part of Kingdom of God!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL before we get saved though are in the Kingdom of satan, NOT children of God, but of wrath, so how do those terms relate to us being sheep?

    is there ANY difference in the state/condition of those to get saved, or those to stay losr BEFORE those to get saved actually had that happen to them?

    Would we see ANY difference before God before salvation was to happen then?
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Only those born of the Spirit are the children of God.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) We are made sinners at conception, and thus are born sinners and are sinners during our lifetime, and if God does not put us spiritually into Christ, we die as sinners. The sheep are sinners from the get go.

    2) If we are chosen and set apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith in the Truth, then we are changed from being sinful sheep into being holy and blameless sheep, i.e. "Christ's sheep."

    3) If we are not "in Christ" we are in the realm of darkness, but if we are transferred into the Kingdom of His Son, we are in the Kingdom of God.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    May I ask you what occurs at conception that makes them sinners, rather than "in Adam" when "all have sinned" aorist tense punctilliar action?
     
  16. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Van - What, then, is your belief on the destination of persons of die in infancy?
     
  17. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is the word of God, that which was proposed by God, before the foundation of the world?

    In other words, is the word of God, the promise of God, made before the world begin, the hope of eternal life?
    Is it, the word of God, that the Christ, the Son of God would shed his precious blood for redemption and was this determined, before the foundation of the world.
    Is it, the word of God, that God would elect/choose in the above Christ, some to be holy and without blame before him in love: And: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

    James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


    Does firstfruit, it is always singular and I do not know why the translators always put a plural ending, mean only?

    Doesn't it have the implication of other fruit of like kind? That the elect are chosen as an example. Do you get the feeling from Paul that he chose to be a child of God or that God had chosen him to be a child of God.

    But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, Gal 1:15

    Did Paul ask Jesus to come into his heart that day or did God choose Paul according to the purpose of God?

    What has God told those begotten as a kind of firstfruit, that he God is doing?

    Eph 1:9,10 2 Cor 5:18,19

    Now I am not sure what all that includes but I do believe there will be other fruit beside the first fruit of his creatures.

    Now would it matter in the long run whether a baby or anyone could choose God? Maybe there are elect babies as a kind of first fruit of his creatures and non elect babies. However, I am not going to worry about either.

    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matt 24:14
    To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19
    Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man. Ecc 12:13
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 5:19 says the many (everyone except Christ) are made sinners. We are made at conception.

    Lets consider what would happen to someone who has never sinned, and they sin. They become (1) unholy, (2) separated from God and (3) have piled up wrath for which justice requires punishment. Now consider someone, say at conception, have they committed any sin? Nope. Have they piled up wrath requiring punishment? Nope. Are they children of wrath rather than children of God? Yes. Are they separated from God, spiritually dead? Yes. Bottom line, to be made sinners means we are conceived in a sinful, separated from God, spiritually dead state. We must be born anew.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi PreachTony, my belief is based on my understanding of scripture. John 3:18 says he who does not believe has been judged already. When we are conceived, are we believers or non-believers, having never heard or understood the gospel? Unbelievers. So from conception until a person is old enough to know right from wrong, even though they have done nothing good or bad, are unbelievers, condemned already. But, since they have not piled up wrath, they do not face torment in retribution for their volitional sins. Does the Bible tell us clearly what happens? I think not. Will they enter heaven and enjoy fellowship with family? I think not, for Jesus is the way and no one goes to the Father except through Jesus. One possibility is they will rest in peace.
     
    #39 Van, Oct 21, 2014
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  20. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

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    Two questions, then:

    1. What scriptural evidence do you propose for the notion that an unbeliever who never piled up wrath is resting in peace?

    and

    2. It doesn't seem to fit the character and nature of God, as revealed in Jesus Christ, to condemn someone who never even had the opportunity to hear and partake of the gospel. It especially doesn't fit that nature when the person, in this case a baby/child, was not even capable of taking steps toward repentance or, in the case of Old Testament law, making atonement. In three out of four gospel accounts, Jesus even spoke of little children (whom the disciples were trying to rebuke and run off) saying that "of such was the kingdom of God, or kingdom of Heaven. What say you?
     
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