Featured Church Discipline Effective;Necessary or Outdated; Unnecessaryah?

I've seen it four times. Three good, one definitely questionable.

First time was a business owner got his secretary pregnant, divorced his wife and abandoned his children for the secretary. Secretary and the man were read out of membership. Years later she repented publically and was restored to membership, but without the option of serving as teacher, etc.

Second time was a case of domestic violence. Man read out of church, she allowed to remain.

Third time was the same.

Fourth time the preacher's teenage son and another boy in the church were at odds. There was a lot of he said/he said things. Basically the other boy refused to either deny or admit he had said some things, refused to publically repent, and was read out of membership. His parents denied the charges for him and his whole family left. Started another church, and it is thriving.

In the first three cases MT. 18 was followed but since the sin continued and that without repentance the churches felt they had no choice. I agree.

In the last case, I simply don't know if the one teen was truly doing bad stuff or if he was just on the bad side of the preacher's kid.

I don't believe in church discipline if someone doesn't believe in tithing, or doesn't attend as regularly as sister Sue thinks they should, or holds a different view of prophecy than the powers that be.

But gross, open, defiant, willful, unrepentant sin, yeah. I'm quite willing for the church NOT to toss out someone in bondage to a besetting sin, as long as they admit it is sin and are seeking to break free.

Quite another thing to just be bull headed.

 

If you were wrong why would you not accept discipline?


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Pendleton and Dagg are correct. The lack of Church Discipline is the major problem with the Church today. Anything is tolerated.

The problem is exacerbated because the Churches have gotten so big that serious problems of sin are generally not known. One in particular that is tolerated is unmarried members living together.


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Matthew's prescription doesn't assign the church responsibility for the reaction. I am amazed how willing folk are to stand ankle deep in sin and demand their right to do so. I am even more amazed at their incredulity toward the church who stood on sound biblical practice and admonished those she loved.

Hebrews 12:5-7 NAS77

5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;
6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?​

 

Actually if the sin is publicly known, as in the case Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 5, I do not see any necessity for an individual to confront the accused. Seems to me the first step would be for a delegation from the Church to confront the accused and proceed from there. I presented a similar case a few years back on this BB and one would have thought I had committed blasphemy! Putting it mildly I was shocked! shocked! I say shocked! at the response.

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Continuing what Scripture tells us!

Hebrews 12:8-11, NASB
8. But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness.
11. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

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Yes, sir!:thumbsup:

And there is a warning for those who would use their office improperly:

1 Peter 5:1-3 NAS77

1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;
3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.​

 

And this has given me concern on occasions:

James 3:1, 2 NASB
1. Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.
2. For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

Actually this is probably applicable to all on this BB since we are trying to teach one another!

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I don't like discipline. When I was 30 years old I got cross ways with my boss. He asked me to do something that I knew was wrong. I refused and he confronted me about it. Rather than accept his discipline, I quit and started my own business. That was 39 years ago and I have never answered to another soul about my affairs, and I won't ever have to again in this life. If I sin, I know it and God knows it. I know what I have to do to get right with God and don't need or want a church pointing their finger at me.

Now I have a question for those who advocate church discipline. To what extent do you watch your members to see if they are sinning or teaching false doctrine? What if he is cheating on his taxes? his wife? his employer? You're probably not going to know about it. Yet, the member who regularly gets drunk at the local pub gets hauled before the church. What is the justice in that?

 

But you did what you were required to do out of love for the sinning brother.

 

So as far as you are concerned Jesus Christ, God, was blowing smoke, just wasting His time, when He said:

Matthew 18:15-17
15. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Well history and Scripture show that God was not just blowing smoke when He told Adam:

Genesis 2:16, 17
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Similarly God tells us very clearly:

Hebrews 12:5-11
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Perhaps you think that the Church is simply a place where people gather to sing a few songs an listen to a preacher say a few words. But Jesus Christ did not die for the Church with no purpose in mind. The Apostle Paul tells us what constitutes the Church in the following Scripture:

Ephesians 2:19-22
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

A Holy Temple, not just a gathering of believers, Saints, but a union of Saints for a Habitation of God through the Holy Spirit.

And then again the Apostle Paul tells us:

2 Corinthians 11:1-3
1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Finally we are given a glorious picture of the Church, that union of Saints, that chaste Virgin Bride of Jesus Christ, in the presence of Holy God forever!

Revelation 21:1-3
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

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I don't know what your concept of the Church is but from what you say I understand it isn't much. Frankly I feel sorry for you. You are 69 years old and what you have to show for it is a rebellious spirit!

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Actually I have a rather high view of the church and you have chosen these passages well to focus on its importance in the Kingdom of God. I could even add two or three more to your list. But I don't see where any of these, outside Matthew 18, gives the church a license to discipline its members. And What does Matthew 18:15 that you quoted say? "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee . . . ." Clearly Jesus was talking about disputes between members, not the church being the sin police. That is God's job.

 

Aside from the rather childish attitude presented here it is most definitely a low view of the church. The church is in fact to discipline its members. We should have such a high view of the church that its judgments should have more weight to us that the secular judicial system. Anyway Paul made it clear that the church was not to tolerate known sin.


1Co 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
1Co 5:3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.
1Co 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.


When we take a look at Matthew 18 it is clear that it begins on the individual level. However, verse 16 shows that because of an unrepentant brother it should be escalated to more than one person. This of course is understood to be fellow believers, in other words the church. Verse 17 then moves it beyond just a few but to the whole of the church. When we read the whole of the context it is difficult to see this as simply disputes between individuals. You have to cherry pick verse 15 to do that.

 

Tolerated?!? Really. Tolerated.!?! I seriously doubt you will find any pastor here who is going to put a committee together to approach any couple together.....could be wrong but .....

 

Amen. John Wesley gives sound guidance on faithfully applying Matt. 18, see chapter four of https://textsincontext.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/love-basics-heresies-divorce-homosexuality-church/

 

That is what I said!

 

I know what you said...I just don't see anyone acting on it. I don't see any of these churches doing much but sitting on their parses quite frankly.

 

Sadly most will continue to do so.

 

You just named the darkness my brother but it is up to the churches to follow through in both love and mercy. Christ threw out the money changers in the temple....he did not waver. But it could be argued......ah, just temper your justice with scads of mercy.....mercy upon mercy upon mercy....touch the flesh and know. :jesus: