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Featured Why Did Christ Have To Die?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Thousand Hills, Apr 10, 2014.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Yea! Right on! Maybe Winman believes such people actually exist, or fancies himself to be like that.
     
  2. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I have no aspirations of winning the day. If that were my aim, I would be willing to argue, which I'm not. It's simply a matter of biblical truth.

    As for a copy/paste job, there are two reasons I do not wish to engage in that sort of "debate"

    1) We are told in scripture "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim 2:15) - We are NOT told to show someone else approved. You interject with "false" and "you do not understand" and the like, as if you've studied issues for yourself. That's why I asked for your own words. Not so I can catch you slipping up. How can you rightly argue something you haven't studied out in scripture?

    2) If I disagree with something on a web page written by someone else, how can I ask for clarification? What if I demonstrate a biblical position in such a way that the author of that web page has a change of view? Would you ever know? Would that author send you an email confirming that he now has a different position? If he did, would that change your mind, or would you simply scour the internet for another web page to agree with you?


    Now, you will have to forgive me for not quoting you direct, but some points run through my words and how you replied, and it honestly started to become too time consuming to try to get the quotes strung together from four posts. My brain started to go into hyper lock.


    You seem to be saying that a spiritual body is something "given", as if it's not the same body we have now. And you also said that Paul did not tell us what this spiritual body will be like. But scripture absolutely does tell us what our body will be like.


    The foundation of the resurrection is Christ.

    1Cor 15:
    12 - Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

    20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    22 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    We will be raised in the same exact manner that He was raised

    Philippians 3:20-21 we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.....Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

    Romans 6:5 - For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection


    So did Jesus receive a different body, or was it the same body which died?

    Jesus said that He would raised "This Temple", speaking of His body - John 2:
    18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

    21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.


    We can see that His resurrection body was the exact same body which died.

    Luke 24:
    35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

    41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

    42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

    43 And he took it, and did eat before them.


    He went to great pains to demonstrate that it was the same body. He said "touch Me" and ate with them.

    And He also called His resurrection body FLESH and BONE - verse 39


    Acts 10:
    40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

    41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.


    And in that same manner which Christ was raised, we will be also.

    Romans 8:11 - But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    This quickening of our mortal body is not us receiving a different type of body, it will be the same body which dies - in the same exact manner of resurrection as His.

    We will be raised in the same body we have now. He will give life to THIS body. Flesh and bone


    Many like to reference John 20:19 as support for this notion of a "spiritual body" as if it is somehow a hybrid spirit matter, not quite flesh.

    You even referenced it in similar fashion.

    The argument is that Jesus walked through a wall. That is supposed proof that his body is a spirit form. Yet, John never said that Jesus walked through a wall.

    John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


    Where does He walk through a wall? He didn't have to walk through a wall. You might ask "well how else did He get in there?"

    Consider:

    Luke 24:31 - And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

    The same one who walked on water, calmed a sea, fed 5,000 men with a single sack lunch, breathed the Holy Spirit onto His disciples and raised Himself from the dead, and vanished from sight. This same One had to enter through a wall?

    He simply appeared and disappeared at will. He's God, for crying out loud. The Great I AM, who manifest Himself in a burning bush, caused fire and brimstone to rain down, made a donkey speak, and protected a few young Jewish boys in a fiery furnace.

    He simply appeared in their midst.


    I apologize again. I have run out of time to devote to this post right now, and I must get ready for work. But I will return in about 14 hours, God willing, to address exactly what Paul meant by spiritual body.


    And again, I hope you do not feel that I am merely attempting to "win the day"

    This is a matter of truth in the utmost degree
     
  3. JPPT1974

    JPPT1974 Active Member
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    Christ dies in order for us to have eternal life and salvation. As that we would never be separated from death and from God. Due to us sinning and needing to die.

    But Christ took care of it once and for all. Over 2K years ago. That will never, ever be repeated again. It was on our sinless and perfect One and Only, Son of God!
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The for atonement for their sins was only in those whom God intended it to save spiritually, the Elect! death of Jesus provided for the physical resurrection of all mankind, but the specific aspect of providingion was applied towards those He intended to be saved by that act, the Elect!
    for spiritual redempt
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual in that will be raised in a different state, NOT like a spirit Ghost form, but the same physical body died in will be raised up by God and changed into state jesus now has for his own body!

    Physical resurrection/glorification!
     
  6. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I apologize to Iconoclast for not getting to part 2 of my explanation about the spiritual body. Life has been in the way for a couple of days, but I have not forgotten. Tonight is the night. My youngster goes to stay all night at his mom's house tonight, so I should have plenty of time for my reply
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello JamesL,

    Take your time...family is the priority,,,I would like to see your response to vs 35-50...and your response to the issue of angelic bodies.
     
  8. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    I appreciate your grace. I have been working on it, and here is the first of a multi-part post:

    before addressing the glories of the sun, moon, etc (1Corinthians 15:38-41), I would like to address the other verses from 35-50. There are several references to "this word", whereby I mean the Greek word.

    As you probably know, one Greek word can be translated into several English words, so I referenced my Greek concordance to find where the same Greek word was used in multiple places


    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

    Here, Paul is simply saying that just as a seed is planted, and out of it comes the grain, so it is with our body. It will be sown in the ground, then out of it will spring womething more wonderful.

    What follows is a series of contrasts in order that we can garner the truth of what our resurrection body will be like. I believe it is very helpful to look at how these Greek words were used elsewhere in the NT, in order to get a better idea of what they might mean here in this list of contrasts.


    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Celestial - (literally - on heavenly) contrasted against Terrestrial (lit. - earthly), both words are used in John 3:12, where Jesus said, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"

    Both words are also used in Philippians 2:10, where Paul wrote, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth"

    It doesn't seem to have any special signiicance in either of these contexts, other than to say one is from the earth, and one is from heaven. In other words, one comes from our earthly parents, the other from the Spirit who will give life to our mortal bodies (Rom 8:3)

    But beyond those verses which contain both words, there are a few other verses which contain the second, earthly:

    2Cor 5:1 - For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    James 3:15 - This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

    Philippians 3:19 - Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

    What I gather from these other verses is that terrestrial, or earthly, denotes sinfully inclined, self serving Compare that to how Paul spoke of the "body of death" in Romans 7:14-25, and the contrast would seem, to me, the opposite - not sinfully inclined


    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption

    The note for verse 42 also appiles to verses 50, 53-54

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption
    corruption, or corruptible - contrasted against incorruption, or incorruptible

    Two related words are corruptible and corruption, and the other two are incorruptible and incorruption. It helps to compare:

    Romans 1:23 - And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Romans 9:25 - And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    1Peter 1:4 - To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you

    1Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

    The gist of the corruptible is that it fades away, or dies. In sharp contrast to incorruptible, which does not fade away. In 1Peter 3:4, he uses incorruptible as a synonym for undefiled. So if incorruptible means undefiled, then corruptible should mean defiled.

    I will also make a note about 1Peter 3:4 later, as it pertains to other explanation

    I will make another post to continue
     
  9. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    It is much easier to demonstrate dishonour than glory, for glory is spoken of so many times in the NT, close to 170 times. Nevertheless, both words are used together elsewhere:

    2Corinthians 6:8 - By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true

    There isn't much to go on as far as these words being used together, and glory is used in more than one way - repsect, high esteem, god-honouring, majesty, praise, brightness, etc. So in my estimation, it is a little fruitless to gather an understanding of glory apart from the contrast against dishonour.

    Dishonour (Gr - atimia) is used in a way of disrespect and shame, such as in 1Cor 11:14, speaking of long hair being shameful to a man. But, in Romans 1:26, it is translated as vile:

    Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile (dishonouring) affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature

    A related word (atimazo - lit. I dishonour), is also used in Romans 1 in the same fashion, and again in Romans 2:23 in the context of dishonouring God

    Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

    Romans 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

    What I see in these verses is that the dishonouring is related to sinfulness. Even in other uses of these two words, it is related to sinfulness, as in Mark 12:4, where the vineyard workers beat the slave and sent him away "shamefully" handled

    Also in verse 43 is the contrast between weakness and power. Again, a difficulty arises in ascertaining a meaning of power. The Greek word is dunamis, which means "able" Several English words, such as dynamite and dynamic come from this word. It is used 3 times in 1Corinthians 12, in the context of spiritual gifts, and is translated "miracles" (verses 10, 28, 29).

    Contrasted against this dunamis is weakness. This word (astheneia), is unsed mostly in the form of infirmity, ailment, and disease:

    Matt 8:17 - That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our "infirmities", and bare our sicknesses.

    Luke 5:15 But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.

    Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of "infirmity" eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.
    Luke 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine "infirmity".

    There are several other verses which use this word in the same manner - Luke 8:2, John 5:5, John 11:4, Acts 28:9, Galatians 4:13 & 1Tim 5:23. It has every indication that weakness is akin to ailment, while power would be the oppostie. But this ailment is also spoken of in a way that is pertinent to this use in 1Cor 15:

    Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the "infirmity" of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

    Here, Paul is speaking about this infirmity as if it relates to sin. The because of the "infirmity" of the flesh, we have yielded our members to iniquity. There is a very common idea that runs through all of the contrasts listed thus far - the body which is sown is corruptible, dishonourable (or shameful), weak (or diseased).

    It is sin which causes corruption, shame and disease. Not only our own sins, but the one of Adam, by which the whole world was made to feel the effects of sin. I will also make another reference to this later.

    The contrast is incorruption, glory, and power. I don't believe these to be magical words, understood apart from the contrasted sin-wrecked condition of the first body. The body which is made to "stand up" (resurrected), simply put, will be raised without the effects of sin.

    All of these words are used in other places in relation to sin. As mentioned previously, 1Peter 3:4 uses incorruption when speaking of the inner person of a believer, which has been washed and renewed in regeneration (Titus 3:5). Interestingly, the word which Paul used for regeneration (palingenesia) is used only one other time in the NT (Matt 19:28), where Jesus is speaking of the resurrection. He called it the regeneration (KJV), or the renewal of all things (NIV).

    The same thing which happens to our inner man in regeneration is the same thing which will happen to our body - washed, cleansed, spotless.

    I will make another post to continue
     
  10. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    But what about the last contrast, which is "natural" versus "spiritual" ?
    I believe this is simply another contrast which follows the previous three. And here in this contrast is the most telling evidence that these contrasts should all be understood the same way: sin-wrecked verses NOT sin-wrecked.

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    This same exact contrast is made in more than one place in the NT, and all have the same connotation:

    This word for "natural" is psuchikos, which literally means "soul-like". This word is used a total of 6 times in the New Tesatment - 3 times here in 1Cor 15 (twice in verse 44, then in verse 46). The other three times are:

    1Corinthians 2:14 But the "natural" man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    James 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, "sensual", devilish.

    Jude 19 These be they who separate themselves, "sensual", having not the Spirit.

    In these three uses, the implication is clear. The natural is earthly, carnal, sinful, in stark contrast with heavenly, or righteous or not inclined toward sin.

    We see this contrast between "soul" and "spirit" in verse 45. Not speaking of a human dichotomy, but a contrast between soul-like, or earthly, and spiritual, or heavenly:
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    This soul/spirit contrast in verse 45 is sandwiched between two references to the contrast betwee naturla and spiritual:

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    He then equates natural with earthy, and spiritual with heavenly:

    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    I will make another post to continue
     
  11. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Before moving to verse 50, let's look at verse 53 again along with verse 54. I referenced it earlier, with the contrast between corruptible versus incorrupible, but there is one more contrast:

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    The word for mortal is literally "death-like", and is used in Romans 6:12, where Paul says "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body." It is also used in Romans 8:11, which says the Spirit will give life to our "mortal" body, which is also called "sinful flesh (Rom 8:3).

    This is contrasted against immortality, which is literally "deathlessness". 2Corinthian 5:4 says that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

    When we look at every contrast which Paul uses, there is a commonality in every one - sin verses righteousness. It is sin which causes corruption, shame, disease, and death. This condition of sin, shame and dishonour is a description of earthly, or natural, while the contrasting heavenly, or spiritual is incorruption, honour, power, and life.

    This state of "natural" comes from Adam, by which the whole world was made to feel the effects of sin. When we look at verses 21-22, we read:

    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    We see the exact same teaching in Romans 5:12-21, which says:

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    In verse 12, where it says all "sinned". But as we keep reading, we see that in Adam death reigns unto all men, but that righteousness unto life is through Christ.

    Many, when seeing the words justification and righteousness, automatically think a crediting of righteousness through faith. But this is not the case. As I mentioned, regeneration is a washing, which is a removeal of sin, and is used in the context of the inner man (Titus 3:5) and the body (Matt 19:28). Every person ever born will experience physical death on account of Adam, and every person will experience resurrection on account of Christ. This is how the body of an unbeliever will not perish in the lake of fire. All become corrupted in teh flesh by Adam, and all are cleansed in the flesh by virtue of Christ's resurrection.

    It will not be a different body we recieve; this body will "stand up", which is what resurrection means. This same body will stand up - both believer and unbeliever alike. While I said earlier that everyone ever born will experience physical death, that is not quite the case. Paul goes on to say that not everyone will have their body sown in the ground:

    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This victory through Jesus Christ is what Paul alluded to in Romans 7:

    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Our mortal, corrupt, sinful flesh of dishonour will die. It will be sown in the ground "natural", earthly. In short, sin-wrecked.

    But in the regeneration it will "stand up" to life "spiritual" with sin washed away, incorruptible, full of honour. In short, not sin-wrecked.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    jamesl

    Thanks for responding.We are looking ay some great verses,I am glad we can agree on much.
    In 1 cor 2....Paul speaks of am unsaved person,,,his Spirit is dead, When God saves the person his Spirit is quickened...but NOT the body,,, That is promised on the last day..

    Now in 1 cor15:44 the body...not the Spirit is in view clearly.
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption
    flesh and blood which we now have cannot go into heaven. When Lazarus was raised he was still in a physical body......you mention Jesus raised on earth eating fish and honeycomb....yes

    however when John see's Him ascended in His glorified spiritual body he fell at His feet as a dead man...something changed as we will be changed into the spiritual body.


    [QUOTEThis victory through Jesus Christ is what Paul alluded to in Romans 7:

    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    ]
    Yes ...Paul desires the redeemed body...which will never sin
     
    #32 Iconoclast, Apr 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2014
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think this is where some of the confusion comes in, as the Bible doe speak of us having a spiritual body , but that is NOT referring to a ghost like state, but that the state of our physical bodies was changed into one suitable for heaven!
     
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So what verse are you thinking of? It says it was physical but raised a spiritual body
     
  15. JamesL

    JamesL Well-Known Member
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    Iconoclast,
    thanks again for your patience while I took forever to get my thoughts posted. You're right that his is a great passage, and I do believe there is much commonality in our understanding



    Not the case at all. It is sown natural, raised spiritual.

    As I noted, there are only a few verses which use the word natural. It never means physical. It means earthly, carnal, immature, and a whole host of other non-flattering words to mean sinfully depraved In short, sin-wrecked.

    In contrast, spiritual means heavenly, godly, mature, and other flattering adjectives. In short, not sin-wrecked.

    Throw this contrast in with all the others which Paul used, for they all mean the same thing.

    It is sin which causes death. It is sin which causes corruption. It is sin which brings dishonor. It is sin which causes weakness. It is called natural - earthly, coming from a natural order of procreation (from earth).

    But when this body is stood up, in the regeneration, all the sin will be cleansed. It will not longer be a body of death, which is caused by sin. It will be full of life - full of honor, incorruptible, raised in power. It is called spiritual - heavenly, coming from the Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead.

    Has nothing to do with a physical form versus a spirit form. It is simply sin-wrecked now, and will be raised "not win-wrecked"
     
    #35 JamesL, Apr 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2014
  16. Squire Robertsson

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