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Featured Darby = Dispensationalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, May 11, 2015.

  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your problem is that you do not understand that Scripture is progressive, that it is sometimes written in symbolic language. The Old Testament must be understood in light of the New Testament and Jesus Christ.

    The above Scripture may be fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth, I don't know, but it certainly does not have reference to a Jewish Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Christ in all the Glory of the Godhead sitting on David's throne in a rebuilt temple where bloody sacrifices are once again offered to whoever. Not to GOD because the doctrine is that HE is sitting on David's throne and Jesus Christ has already made atonement for all who believe! That reinstatement of bloody offerings smacks of the Mass of Roman Catholicism!
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The verse in Isaiah 66:25 may be talking about a new heaven and a new earth. I will give you that.
    But not the verses in Isaiah 11. Look again:
    Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
    The root of Jesse--an ensign of the people; the Gentiles shall seek; his rest shall be glorious.
    These phrases are not the phrases you will find in the New Heavens and the New earth. This is what you will find in the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus will be ruling with a rod of iron from Jerusalem. All Gentiles shall come to Jerusalem to see him. If I have a desire to visit "the holy land now," how much more intensified will that desire be if Jesus Himself will be there in the flesh??

    The preceding verses are not allegorical. They describe the world as it was before the Fall, before the curse. Romans 8 describes the creation itself groaning and travailing until now and even the creation itself is waiting for the Coming of the Son of God to be delivered from the curse. It will be returned to its former state. The scripture is literal. There is no reason not to take it literally.
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So then Jesus really didn't come in your book it was all just written in symbolic language to say A Messiah would come. In your book Daniel must have been speaking symbolically when He spoke of the Messiah being cutoff because he also spoke of the Abomination that maketh desolate in the same prophecy.

    Or it is all a literal interpretation and Faith in a literal savior Jesus Christ saves all who believe on Him. So are all other prophecies going to receive a literal fulfillment. To say otherwise is to pick and choose by ones own determination what is literal and what is symbolic in order to fit ones own view of scripture.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The Root of Jesse came 2000 years ago and the Elect Gentiles are still seeking HIM!
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And you simply sit back and deny His second Coming?
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your simple minded post is insulting. Yes the Messiah came and the Jews conspired with the people they hated almost as much as they hated Jesus the Messiah to slaughter the Messiah; ROME. That slaughter took place in the middle of the seventh week of Daniel's prophecy. Not only was that slaughter instigated by the Jews but when Pilate would have released Jesus the Messiah the Jews threatened to report him to Caesar. Now that is real hatred.

    The Abomination, in my opinion, was the continuation of the blood offerings after Jesus Christ had paid the penalty for sin, slaughtered by Rome at the instigation of the Jews.

    Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

    And the mind of the high priest was indeed wicked since he was the leader in the conspiracy to slaughter Jesus the Messiah.

    John 11:45-53
    45. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
    46. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
    47. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
    48. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
    49. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50. Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not
    .
    51. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52. And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
    53. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.


    And these wicked people continued to offer blood sacrifices in the Temple, an Abomination before GOD, until God destroyed the temple in 70AD using the same people the Jews used to slaughter Jesus the Messiah: ROME!

    Your posts display the typical childish arrogance {I know something you don't.} of the followers of John Nelson Darby's false doctrine.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    A typical pre-trib response. You know perfectly well DHK that statement is false!
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If it is false then you would have a better answer than:

    The Root of Jesse came 2000 years ago and the Elect Gentiles are still seeking HIM!

    to my post #202.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Are you denying that Jesus the Messiah is the Root of Jesse or that Jesus the Messiah came 200 years ago or that Elect Gentiles are still being added to HIS Church! I can't tell which from your response!
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus is the root of Jesse. That is a name that describes his humanity.
    He came in his humanity 2,000 years ago.
    He will come in his humanity again, sometime in the future to set up His Millennial Kingdom. Are you not denying this fact?
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    There are holes in your theory:

    Daniel 12:10-12,
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days".

    The problem the 1290 days. Since John wrote Revelation around A.D. 95 and He spoke of this not having happened as of yet your timing is off.

    Revelation 11:3
    And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Revelation 12:6
    And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

    Almost the exact time that Daniel said would occur at the Abomination that maketh desolate, is seen in Jesus prophecy concerning the time of the two witnesses and the Woman (Israel) being in the wilderness, would come to pass. The image of the Beast is set up at that time. Yet if it were as you said then the 2 witnesses would have come and been seen by the whole world. So under you scenerio who were the two witnesses?
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The hole is in the pre-cribbers trying to use Daniel's 70th week to justify their doctrine. The Scripture states unequivocally that Jesus Christ was murdered AFTER the 69th week. That means he was murdered in the 70th week. The "he" of verse 27 is not a Roman it is Jesus Christ.

    Daniel 9:27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The passage states: in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,. Jesus Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease because HE is the only Sacrifice that enables GOD to forgive sins. All the blood poured out on the altar never paid for a single sin ever committed. It simply was a foreshadowing of that perfect Sacrifice to come Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ started HIS ministry at the beginning of the 70th week and was murdered at the instigation of the Jews about 3.5 years after HE began his ministry, the middle of the 70th week.

    Any sacrifice offered in the Temple after the death of Jesus Christ was an abomination: Proverbs 21:27. The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

    It was the wicked mind of the high priest who instigated the murder of Jesus Christ:

    John 11:45-53.
    45. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
    46. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
    47. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
    48. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
    49. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    50. Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    51. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    52. And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
    53. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.


    The above Scripture shows the wickedness of the high priest and other leaders of the Jews and the continued sacrifice in the Temple was an abomination as Proverbs 21:27 clearly shows. GOD mercifully destroyed the Temple in 7o AD and stopped this abomination at the same time judging the Jews for their part in the murder of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That makes Christ a sinner. Horrible theology.
    and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.
    In another translation:
    CEV Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there.
    ESV And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate
    LITV And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end.
    --This is not Christ as you say. "He" is called "The Horrible Thing." He causes destruction, the altar in the temple to be desecrated. This is the way that you describe our Lord Jesus Christ!!
    Jesus Christ is not called "the Horrible Thing," the one who makes things desolate, the one who causes the Temple to be an abomination. This is blasphemy.
    As predicted, Christ died at the end of 69 weeks or 483 years ca. 29 A.D.
    Now the 70th week is 7 years.
    What happened between 29 and 36 A.D.? Nothing!! And there is no way to stretch this out to 70 A.D. Christ died at least 40 years before then. Your math doesn't add up.
    Your whole explanation is not only ridiculous but blasphemous.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are being devious to th point of lying. I did not say Jesus Christ caused the Temple to be an abomination. I said that after the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ the bloody offerings in the Temple by the wicked, and the High priest Caiaphas, who instigated the murder of Jesus Christ was a wicked man, was an abomination. You are so smart answer this: Why did GOD allow Rome to destroy the Temple? And just so people will know what I said I repeat myself:

    How is it blasphemous, because it disputes the pre-trib mantra of "what about Daniel's 70th week"? Dr. Bob said the use of "blasphemous" was forbidden on this forum. i suppose that applies only to the non Rapture Ready folks!

    Scripture does not say Jesus Christ was murdered at the end of 69 weeks but AFTER 69 weeks!

    Verse 9:25 states:
    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    According to the above it is 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince. That cannot mean that it will be 69 weeks until HE is murdered but 69 weeks until HE starts HIS ministry of 3.5 years which means Jesus Christ was murdered by the Jews in the middle of the 70th week!

    You can twist Scripture all you want, even shuffle your feet a lot, but the 70th week of Daniel was finished almost 2000 years ago.
     
    #214 OldRegular, May 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2015
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 12:10-12,
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days".

    Again you need to account for the 1290 days. From the ending of the sacrifice and being taken away until the abomination which maketh desolate would end.

    A.D. 70 is 40 years after A.D. 30 or 33 whereever you place Christ death.

    1290 days is only 3 1/2 years and that is the length of time that Daniel said the Beast would establish the Abomination that Maketh desolate. Instead you answered it with Daniel 9 which is different.

    So how do your account for the 1290 days or 3 1/2 years from Christ Death burial and resurrection to make the date A.D. 70 as the date the abomination ends that would have been 14,400 days. So how do you Daniel 11 fits your A.D. 70 date as the end of the Abomination which maketh desolate?
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I did not say 70AD was the end of the 70th week! I said nothing about the end of the 70th week. I said GOD destroyed the Temple in 70AD! You should learn to read more carefully.
     
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Notice your words in Red. Sounds like you said that the abomination ended in A.D. 70 to me and would imagine others.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is what you said:
    "The 'He' of Dan.9:27 is not a Roman but Christ."
    Now let me quote you that verse in another translation and you show me how any part of it refers to Christ:

    (CEV) For one week this foreigner will make a firm agreement with many people, and halfway through this week, he will end all sacrifices and offerings. Then the "Horrible Thing" that causes destruction will be put there. And it will stay there until the time God has decided to destroy this one who destroys.
    Is Christ a foreigner--ever? No.
    This foreigner will make an agreement with many people. That is not what Christ did.
    Half way through the week-- 3 1/2 years into that week he puts an end to all sacrifices. How? By desecrating the Temple. Jesus refers to that in the gospels.
    Here the same person is also called "the Horrible Thing."
    He causes destruction--in the Temple which desecrates it.
    That destruction and desecration will stay there until the end of The Tribulation until the Lord Comes and destroys the Antichrist in the brightness of His Coming. This is at the end of the Tribulation at the coming of Christ.
    It is blasphemous because you said the "he" of 9:27 is Christ, who is also called "that Horrible Thing." Read the verse in some other translations to get an understanding of the passage.
    The time is very precise. Many scholars have debated this. 483 years. They have been able to calculate the time from the decree of Cyrus to the death of Christ. It is a remarkable prophesy. You should read "The Coming Prince" by Sir Robert Anderson.

    Verse 9:25 states:
    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    According to the above it is 69 weeks until Messiah the Prince. That cannot mean that it will be 69 weeks until HE is murdered but 69 weeks until HE starts HIS ministry of 3.5 years which means Jesus Christ was murdered by the Jews in the middle of the 70th week!

    You can twist Scripture all you want, even shuffle your feet a lot, but the 70th week of Daniel was finished almost 2000 years ago.[/QUOTE]
    Here are some facts:
    A decree of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah went forth in 444 B.C. (Neh.2:1-8).
    This decree specifically is concerned with the rebuilding of the city. The decree was given in the 20th year of Artaxerxes in the 9th month of Nisan, or March-April, 444 B.C. From this date to the Messiah will transpire a period of seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks, or 483 years. There are two periods here: 7 plus 62 and they run consecutively. This is verse 25.

    In verse 26: After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off: This phrase assumes that the first seven weeks have already transpired, and thus the entire 483 years. That is 69 weeks. But the 70th week has not come yet. There is a gap. This is indicated by the statement that the Messiah will be cut off after the 69 weeks.
    In Jewish prophetic time a "year" was based on 360 days, as a month was 30 days. The same calculations are used in Revelation: 42 months 3 1/2 years 1260 days are all based on 30 day months.
    The Messiah was cut off, that is crucified which occurred between 29-33 A.D., depending on whose calculations or calendar you use. If we go by the one I am currently reading it is April, 33 A.D. The 69th week ended just prior to this, probably at his triumphal entry. If so that would make exactly 483 years from the time of Artaxerxes decree or 69 weeks.
    Remember that this is a prophecy for Israel, spoken to Israel.
    The 70th week is yet to come. It is a seven year period of tribulation often spoken of in the OT.
    "The prince that shall come" is the little horn of 7:8. He is elsewhere known as the Antichrist. The present verse states that the "people of the prince," and not the prince himself will destroy the city. That part was fulfilled in 70 A.D. But the "prince," the reference to the Antichrist yet to come has not come yet.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Then you need to take a course in Reading Comprehension! You Rapture Ready people are so big on literal interpretation so take what I say literally, not what you think I say!
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are apparently relying on a paraphrase in an attempt to prove your point. I don't care what the CEV says. Following is one assessment of the CEV:
    So much for the CEV!

    The KJV reads: 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    The NASB reads: 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    The NKJV reads: 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

    The ESV reads: 27 “And he shall make a strong covenant with the many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering; And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    DHK, you can't beat me down with the pre-trib-false doctrine you write so what do you do? You use a junk translation like the CEV to accuse me of calling Jesus Christ the Horrible One. If anyone on this Forum is blasphemous it is you for using this junk translation to call Jesus Christ the Horrible One, not me. That was a sleazy sick trick and that is all I have to say to you.
     
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