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Featured Trinity

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Feb 24, 2013.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I said that anyone who denies the Deity of Jesus Christ is a heretic. Apparently you get your jollies manipulating words. If you do not believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ then man up and admit it.
     
  2. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again steaver, The Biblicist and OldRegular,

    I am not interested in answering for others, and you seem to like associating me with religions that many cannot accept – a kind of guilt by association.
    If God spoke directly to you out of heaven, or the Lord Jesus Christ as he did to Saul on the way to Damascus, would you dismiss these words? If you received an inspired personal letter addressed exclusively to you (for example Theophanus received the Gospel of Luke and The Acts) from an inspired prophet or an apostle would you regard such a letter simply as a letter? Or would you dismiss it simply as a black and white parchment or scroll?

    If the Apostle Paul spoke to a community of believers and you were invited as a guest would you dismiss his words? If you were not able to attend, and someone wrote down his words on a parchment would you dismiss these written words?
    1 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV): For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

    I appreciate your response and sincerity. No, I do not want to get deeply involved with many of the verses that you are now raising. In an older Post you seem to be alluding to Psalm 110:1.
    Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
    I would be interested to hear your explanation of this verse. Who is The LORD (Yahweh), who is my Lord, and when did Yahweh actually invite David’s Lord to sit at his right hand? Did the throne of God in heaven have God the Father seated, with Jesus at his right hand when David spoke Psalm 110:1?
    I do not believe the Trinity. A Trinitarian in reality believes that Jesus is God the Son, and not the Scriptural “The Son of God”. I believe there is One God the Father and The Lord Jesus Christ is The Son of God.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    So you don't believe in the Trinity. Mods,why is he allowed to post on this Christian forum?
    You're correct that the Bible doesn't use the phraseology of God the Son. But what is the distinction in your view? All true Christians (and true Christians are of necessity Trinitarians) believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Why are you posting on a Christian board? You are not connected with a church --you're kind of a free-ranger. I suppose you will try to defend yourself in some way...but how can you consider yourself orthodox?

    Can you please lay all your cards on the table for us?
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? - Mt. 22:42-45

    Jesus asked them whose Son is Christ? They responded he is the "Son of David. Jesus made his position known by quoting Psalm 110:1. His point is obvious. How can the Christ be merely and only David's son ("the fruit of his loins") when David addressed the Christ as His "Lord" when he was alive. If you cannot see this you cannot see period! Jesus is demanding that Christ preceded the virgin birth and was recognized by David as His Lord. Jesus is making a clear distinction between Christ as the "son of David" through geneological human reproduction and the preincarnate Son of God. This is why the Pharisees could not answer and it is why you cannot answer this text but must pervert and distort and deny the very point that Jesus is making. Christ was recognized by David as His Lord 1000 years prior to the incarnation and thus Christ is not merely human or the "son OF DAVID" but is in addition the eternal "Son OF GOD" BEFORE the incarnation.

    Like the JW's you want to deflect the real point Jesus is making because it exposes you as a heretic. You want to talk about terms, time and things rather than accept the obvious point Jesus made because like the Pharisees you are an unbeliever in the Jesus of the Bible.

    However, I will entertain your unbelief. The lower case term "Lord" translates the Hebrew "adonai" which is the term used by the Jews whenever they spoke the upper case "LORD" (Yahweh). It means the same as "Master." David recognized he had a spiritual MASTER in heaven in addition to Yahweh who shared the throne of Yahweh. For any Jew to recognize someone higher than an earthly king, someone in heaven as "Adonai" other than Yahweh was considered blasphemous. However, Jesus shut their mouth by this simple text which demanded the Christ was more than the FUTURE "fruit of the loins of David" but the PRESENT Master of King David before "the fruit of his loins" was ever born.

    David was the highest ranking human on earth = King = and yet he recognized a Person IN HEAVEN besides "Yahew" as His "Lord" or Master. The Christ is not merely human "son of David" but the Master of David in heaven the Son of God. Jesus is demanding that Psalm 110:1 has a DUAL application and not just a prophetic future application as the Pharisees, JW's and you restrict it to. Jesus is demanding it has a PRESENT application to David as His "Master" and a future applicaton as "the son of his loins."

    The point Jesus is making is the very point you are denying! Jesus is claiming that David recognized Christ as His "Master" during the life time of David 1000 years before Jesus was incarnated. You deny that very point. Instead, like the JW's you want to talk about only the prophetic aspect of this verse in its future fulfillment when Jesus quoted it for the very pupose to demand its PAST application to the person of David in His relationship with God. Even the Pharisees got this point but JW's and you are blind to it. They were wise enough to keep their mouth shut but not so with the JW's and you! Both of you blatantly make Christ a liar.

    In Acts chapter 2 Peter confirms that David had a continuing relationship with Christ as His Lord throughout his own life in addition to HIs prophetic forecast of Christ in the future as the son of his loins:

    For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    What he "foresaw" was the prophetic fulfillment of the death and resurrection of Christ by faith as Peter later says "TO HIM all the prohets gave witness that whosever believeth in his name shall have remission of sins" (Acts 10:43)and David was a prophet:

    [B]Therefore being a prophet[/B], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. - Acts 2:30-31

    No question he foresaw this as "the fruit of his loins" or the prophetic "son of David" but Christ demands this prophetic utterance of David had another application as David's "Lord" and not merely the prophetic "son of David" and so does Peter by the words "always before my face, for he IS on my right hand, that I should not be moved" and that is the point you are denying. You are denying that David in His own life time had a personal relationship with Christ as His "Lord" so that David believed that he was "always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved" or as David says in Psalm 73:

    23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
    24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
    25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


    This present relationship between David and his "Lord" is the point Jesus is demanding when he quoted Psalm 110:1 which shut the mouths of the Pharisees who believed just like you do that he is merely "the son of David" and a mere man. Only a transforming work of Grace will change your mind. Your view of Christ is the Phariseeical view rather than the view of Jesus. Isaiah recognized Christ as the "great God" and "Mighty God" more than a mere predicted virgin born human being (Isa. 7:14; 9:6) and the Holy Spirit called him at the incarnation literally "The God with us" (Mt. 1:23) and Thomas was not taking God's name in vain when he addressed Jesus and called him "My Lord and My God" and Jesus commended him for finally believing who He really was rather than a mere man.

    No, your problem is much deeper. You do not believe the Word of God, you do not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. You worship "another Jesus" and preach "another gospel" and follow "another spirit."


    I am the son of a human father, does that deny I am the human Father's son and share the same nature as my father? The difference is that I am materialistic in nature but God is spirit in nature. My Father and I are of two different material substances but God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit share the same spiritual substance that makes God to be God. If as the Bible clearly teaches that "elohim" (plural - three or more) is "one LORD" just as "time" singular is a trinity, and "space" singular is a trinity and "matter" singular is a trinity, how would Biblical writers communicate there is but "one" God who is Trinitarian in nature? Plural pronouns with singular verbs? Plural nouns with singular verbs? Synonyms for God (elohim, Yahweh, Adonai) applied to different divine Persons in the same sentence or context? Singular nouns modified by three different designations("the name..of the Father AND OF the Son AND OF the Holy Ghost"). Trinitarian ripitition of adjectives ("holy, holy, holy")? Applying attributes that make God to be God separate from all creatures (omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, immutability, eternity, etc.)??
     
    #264 The Biblicist, Apr 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2014
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Christians do not accept your religion Trevor, don't you see this?

    Never spoke about dismissing the Bible. I spoke of relationships. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit whom He has placed within me when I was born-again. I hear Him in my spirit, I feel Him in my spirit, my spirit crys Abba Father.

    Where is your testimony of how you know Jesus Christ is in you Trevor? Do you feel Him in you? Do you hear Him speaking into your conscience?

    From your postings here on this board, I don't hear you as having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I hear you having a relationship with a book, a book which you have twisted into your own belief system, forming your own personal religion, which really is what The JWs have done and the Mormons as well.
     
  6. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist, steaver and Rippon,
    I really do appreciate your response on Psalm 110:1 and your forbearance despite your assessment of my position. To be honest I was surprised that you used Psalm 110:1 to support the pre-existence of Christ, and your explanation has helped me appreciate how you read this. I hope you will not be too upset with my explanation and response because you have already anticipated and stated my position. I can agree that David is indicating that the Christ was greater than a mere son of David, because under the Jewish system of things a son could not be greater than his father, and thus could not be addressed by his father as “Lord”. To me this proves that Jesus was more than son of David through Mary, but was also The Son of God, because God was his Father through the conception and birth Luke 1:30-35, 2 Samuel 7:12-16.

    Even though you strongly deny this in the rest of your response, yes I see Psalm 110:1 as a prophecy of what Yahweh would say to Jesus after his death and resurrection, not what God said to a pre-existent Jesus in the time of David. Jesus was David’s Lord in prospect, not yet in reality. Yahweh, God the Father would invite Jesus to ascend to heaven, and then sit down on his right hand. The NT Scriptures testify that this is what occurred and Jesus is now seated on the right hand of God. If Psalm 110:1 is prophetic, did Yahweh ask David’s Lord to sit at God’s right hand before his resurrection and exaltation. You have already answered this I suppose by saying that Psalm 110:1 has a DUAL application.

    I can agree with the above, and the detail of the words Yahweh and adonai, but only in the future sense, future from the time that David spoke, after Jesus was risen from the dead. Jesus silenced the Pharisees because Psalm 110:1 proved that the Christ must be greater than a son of David, he must also be The Son of God. God the Father is the father of Jesus Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20-21, John 1:14, 3:16.

    If you look at Psalm 16 the “Lord” there is Yahweh, not adonai. David is firstly speaking of his relationship with God the Father. He also speaks of Yahweh’s “holy one” and this is Jesus. Another way of looking at Psalm 16 is that the words that you quote are actually the words or thoughts that Jesus would have when he was near his crucifixion.
    Hebrews 12:1-2 (KJV): 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    I appreciate the rest of your Post and there are some things that I could discuss, but will defer for the moment. I appreciate your sincerity and conviction in what you say.

    I appreciate your thoughts, steaver. I do not think I have a third voice within. Perhaps you may not appreciate this and it would need a bit of explanation, but one of my extremely low experiences in life was greatly helped by Psalm 34, and then later by Matthew 11:25-30.

    I appreciate your thoughts and concerns, Rippon. My main aim is to discuss the Scriptures and have appreciated the forbearance of the Moderators up until now. I am in fellowship with like-minded believers. We do not usually use the term “church” if you derive your comment by looking at my profile. The word orthodox reminds me of the RCC and Eastern Orthodox Churches. We believe both systems astray from the truth of the gospel and many churches accept portions of their teaching. I have stated many of my beliefs in this thread and others.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    It is impossible to reasonably discuss scrpture with some who merely picks and chooses what they want to believe or changes the text to what they want it to say or mean. You have changed the subject of the text from "whose son is he" to "what kind of Son is he."

    Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?......If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    Jesus never asked "what kind of son is he." Jesus never asked if David had a greater son than himself. This is your invention entirely. You invent this and read it into the text in order to avoid the real question and the real problem Christ presents.

    Jesus is asking them to explain how can Daivd call the Christ "MY Lord" if he is but a "son" in his lineage. The problem is that David is ranked higher than any human on earth at the time David said this - he was "King" and yet he calls someone else "MY Lord." On a horizontal level none are higher in position than a King and so there is no horizontal reason for David to call anyone horizontally "My Lord" as all on a horizontal level would be calling David "My Lord." This presented the Pharisees and you a greater problem. David is calling someone "MY Lord" on a VERTICAL level and no Jew would dare call anyone "MY Lord" on a VERTICAL level other than God. This is why it shut their mouth and why it will shut your mouth as well IF you don't change the text to read what you want it to say.

    Second, I did not deny a future application. I plainly stated it is applied to the resurrection of Christ. However, I quoted the language that demands it also had a PRESENT application at the time when David said this. I quoted the langauge and you ignored it. The present tense "is" is being used. The same language is found in Psalm 73 which demands it is PRESENT in application and yet you choose to simply ignore it.

    You are not interested in objective Bible study. You are not interested in following sound Biblical rules of interpretation as you consistently violate sound rules of exegesis. So, why are you even on this forum?
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The way you so carelessly deal with scripture is truly amazing. You simply make it fit whatever you want it to mean. You have already admitted in another post that the term "Yahweh" is directly applied to the Son of God. I can prove this is true in a number of cases.

    Second, the very same language you want to remove from any present application to David but shift wholly to the future and what Christ thinks on the cross is used to show this is what David also thought long before the coming of Christ (Psa. 73). However, you simply ignored the clearly stated application in Psa 73:

    "always before my face, for he IS on my right hand, that I should not be moved" or as David says in Psalm 73:

    23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
    25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.


    Of course this does not fit your unbiblical dogma so you just ignore it as you do all the true contextual based facts of scripture on this subject.
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    However, this text (Psa. 110:1) has NOTHING to do with his "conception and birth"!! Another manipulation of the text on your part. This text has to do with position of authority. David held the highest position of authority among men and yet he calls someone else "MY Lord."

    Furthermore, another manipulation on your part is to exclude the words "my Lord" from any real current relationship with David. Psalms 73 proves your total future application of "My Lord" is wrong as the very same words in Psalm 73 prove there was a CURRENT relationship between David and someone in a vertical relationship with David. The prophetic aspect is merely what Yahweh said to Him that David CURRENTLY recognized as "MY Lord." In reality the prophetic aspect of this quotation was PRESENTLY addressed to someone David PRESENTLY recognized as "My Lord."

    According to your interpretation David had no other "Lord" IN HIS OWN LIFE other than Jehovah. So the Son of God was not David's Lord in any real current sense according to your interpetation but all prophetic after his own death and resurrection. So in a real sense, according to your interpretation David had no one who he could claim as "My Lord" other than Yahweh! Thus, the entire life of David was without anyone he could call "My Lord" in distinction to "LORD." This is the ridiculous conclusion of your interpretation.
     
    #269 The Biblicist, Apr 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2014
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Trevor,

    I will be totally shocked if I one day see a person in the kingdom of God who denied Jesus Christ as LORD God Jehovah. I say this for two reasons; 1) I personally know Jesus Christ is in me and He confirms He is God. 2) The scriptures are crystal clear, overwhelmingly so, Jesus Christ is God.

    I fear for your soul. I have no idea why someone would go to such an extreme to dismiss the clear teaching of the scriptures.

    :praying:
     
  11. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist and steaver,
    I believe that Jesus is asking "whose son is he" and the answer is the Christ is The Son of God. God the Father is the father of Jesus, the Christ. This is not "what kind of Son is he" but "whose son is he". Jesus did not have an earthly father, and he was descended from David only through Mary his mother. Because God is the Father of Jesus, then Jesus the Christ is superior to David and David rightly calls his future descendant Lord. Jesus was greater than David by descent at birth because Jesus was the Son of God by birth Luke 1:35. He is greater than David because Jesus was the Son of God by his moral character, he was full of grace and truth John 1:14. Jesus is greater than David, because Jesus has been exalted above all after his death and resurrection and will be the source of life for David in his own resurrection, as David is now dead and buried and has not ascended to heaven.
    Yes Psalm 73 has a present application but David was speaking to Yahweh, God the Father. I take Psalm 110:1 only to refer to the events after the resurrection of Christ. I have heard of the expression “the prophetic past” that still is only speaking of the future, but you may not like applying that here to Psalm 110:1. Of Abraham “I have made thee the father of many nations” Romans 4:17. The NT is very clear that God the Father has invited Jesus to sit at God’s right hand in God the Father’s throne. To be seated at the right hand of God’s throne is a subordinate position.
    Revelation 3:21 (KJV): To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    Let me try to spell this out. In the time of David there was only one Yahweh, God the Father. The Son of God did not exist in the time of David, so David was not directly speaking to Jesus or God the Son as Yahweh. God the Father was at David’s right hand in Psalm 73. When Jesus comes to sit in the throne of David in glory he will have the name Yahweh, having been given this name, Philippians 2:11, because he represents the One Yahweh in heaven, and this one Yahweh in heaven is God the Father. I also tried to explain that when Jesus appeared he was also the development of the name Yahweh. Jesus was the first (in importance) and major development of what God the Father would become, Yahweh, “He who will be (or become)”, or in the first person “I will be (or become) who I will be (or become)”. This concept of the development of the Yahweh Name may be new and obscure to you but I was introduced to this theme over 50 years ago and this teaching is widespread in our fellowship.

    2 Samuel 23:1-5 (KJV): 1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said, 2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. 3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God. 4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain. 5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
    Yes, David’s heart and hope was set in the future when the Christ, David’s Lord, would sit upon David’s throne. David will receive “the sure mercies of David”, even resurrection from the dead.
    I appreciate your concerns. It may take you some time, but despite your "inspiration" could you consider the terms "LORD God Jehovah". This is an interesting study and perhaps your inner spirit will confirm some of the things you consider and discover with God's blessing.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You just not getting it Trevor. My inner spirit has been and is in a constant state of confirmation on Jesus Christ. This is because I "know" Jesus Christ personally. This is because I "know Jesus Christ is in me".

    It does not get any clearer than this Trevor. How does twisting and perverting a perfectly delivered message from God on this subject benefit YOU?

    If you do not personally KNOW Jesus Christ, and how that He is IN you, you do not understand born of God.



    These called Jesus Christ "Lord,Lord". And what was His answer to them?

    No Trevor, you do not appreciate my concerns here nor anyone else's. You have followed a lie, you have followed the master deceiver......."hath God said?"

    We persuade men, but not all will be persuaded. "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
    And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds. (Acts26)

     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    QU

    Again the prophecy has NOTHING to do with the virgin birth but his POST ressurrection and exaltation. You must force the virgin birth into this text to avoid the contrast between "my Lord" and "If David then call him Lord, how is he his son" -

    You are calling David a liar! According to you David had no such "Lord" to even call "MY Lord" as Christ had no existence in the time of David. What you are failing to see is that His "Lord" did exist and He did claim him as "my Lord" but what was said unto "my Lord" was prophetic in nature. Just as Christ was the Creator of the world (Jn. 1:1-3) "and without him not anything that was made was made." A spiritualized personification cannot create or make anything. You are calling Christ a liar as Christ explicitly states that before he came down from heaven he shared the glory of the Father in heaven. You must spiritualize all these scriptures to support your heresy. "Before Abraham I am" is clear and explicit and completely understood by his audiance to mean that He claimed to be God but you EXPLAIN clear and explicit language AWAY.

    You do what every heretic does! You isolate each scripture and explain away what it says. You don't want to deal with the bulk of the scriptures at once because they are so overwhelming against your position it makes you look like a fool, so you isolate and attack each one separately.



    Again you make God's word a lie! Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: David is referring to the one he called "my Lord" and you are calling David a liar! You are denying that His Lord was "always before His face" and "IS" on "my right hand which gave stablity to David's life here on earth. Note he uses the PRESENT TENSE not the future tense as you claim.

    Jesus claims to be the Creator but according to your theory you again make him a liar and claim he had no prexistencne to the virgin birth much less to the world being created (Jn. 1:1-3). A spiritualized Personification cannot create anything.

    That is an outright lie! The term Yahweh is used in Isaiah for more than one Person. Isaiah 40:3 is directly applied to the Person of Jesus Christ in Mark 1:1-3.

    Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

    The pronouns in Mark 1:2 have as their nearest antecedent "Jesus Christ, the Son of God." That is grammar.

    Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and WITH the last; I am he.

    Rev. 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,



    Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.

    Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

    Isa 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

    Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.


    Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.....16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    In the context of Isaiah 4812-16 it is Jehovah that is speaking and yet "the Lord God, and His Spirit, hath sent ME.


    Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    First, the name "Yahweh" is His personal name which represents His glory as God in contrast to creatures.

    Second, Yahweh is alread ascribed to the Son of God in the book of Isaiah numerous times as shown above.

    Third, The Son shared this glory with the Father BEFORE coming to earth and thus shared the same name that represents that "glory" which belongs exclusively to God alone.

    You were introduced to heresy over 50 years ago and you are a heretic. Most scholars believe the name "Yahweh" comes from the present tense "to be" and as such separates God from all created beings as the present tense "to be" infers immutability, selfsustaining, and eternal. To imagine that it means "to become' is in itself outright heresy as such a concept ascribed to God denies God to be God but in the process of becoming what he was formerly not.
     
    #273 The Biblicist, Apr 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2014
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Which is part of Mormonism's heresy. It appears that what ever religion this is, which Trevor's group has developed, it is derived from mainly the JW's and the Mormon's religion.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    He handles and approaches scripture exactly as do these cults. He wants to isolate each text from the vast bulk of scriptures that repudiate his view and then EXPLAIN AWAY the obvous sense of the text.

    For example, his interpetation of Psalm 110:1 is the assumption that David lied and throughout his life had no one he could claim as "My Lord." However, Peter makes it clear with PRESENT TENSE descriptions that the one he addressed "My Lord" was "always" present in his life and guiding him daily.

    Trevor refuses to see the obvious! The obvious is the "Lord" which David had a daily close walk with was merely promised by the Father that after coming and dying and resurrecting he would be exalted due to his redemptive work.
     
  16. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist and steaver,

    I appreciate your responses. We differ on the “spirit of Christ”, steaver as I understand this to speak of the spiritual mind developed through the affectionate belief of the gospel and the transforming influence of this in the heart and mind.
    Jesus is the son of David, but Jesus has a greater Father than David, and hence David’s does not have authority or rulership over Jesus. I am not forcing any thing, as it is how I understand this concept of “my Lord”. Jesus became David’s Lord because Jesus was the Son of God the Father by means of the Virgin Birth Luke 1:35. For Jesus to be exalted to the right hand of God necessitated that Jesus must also be the Son of God by virtue of his moral character, full of grace and truth. Also God must raise him from the dead, after his crucifixion and change his body into immortality. He was then fully The Son of God, and thus in every respect Jesus the Son of God is David’s Lord. He is greater than David because Jesus will be the source of life to David in the resurrection. In a sense Jesus will give birth to David. David will be born again.

    With Psalm 16 and Psalm 73 it was Yahweh, God the Father that was at David’s right hand. It does not say “adonai”. When Psalm 16 is quoted in Acts 2:25 it really refers to the words or thoughts of Jesus, and thus Jesus is also addressing Yahweh, God the Father.
    Acts 2:25-27 (KJV): 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
    Acts 2:31 (KJV): He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Peter applies both phrases to Jesus. The “I”, “my” of vv25-27 are Jesus not David. This is what is called “the Spirit of Christ” in the prophets 1 Peter 1:11. It is Jesus’ soul that was not left in hell, and God’s Holy One that did not see corruption. In contrast David’s flesh did see corruption.
    Acts 2:29 (KJV): Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    Acts 13:35-37 (KJV): 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.


    Despite your claims I accept the future tense and this does have older and modern scholarly support.
    Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.
    See also the margins of the RV and RSV.

    Peter’s conclusion after he had quoted Psalm 16 and Psalm 110:1 is:
    Acts 2:36 (KJV): Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    Although in Psalm 110:1 David is speaking of Yahweh and David’s “Lord” prophetically, there are many other passages that speak of David’s reliance upon and praise of God the Father, and in these he addresses God as LORD, that is Yahweh, God the Father. In the following David addresses God the Father as both Yahweh and Lord.
    Psalm 8:1 (KJV): O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was/is eternally begotten of/by the father, so that he always was with the Father, NEVER had to be created, was/is always existing, and was just as much fully God as the father is!

    All that God was, the Word was, and jesus is the Word!
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    That is not the "Spirit of Christ", that is "what" the Spirit of Christ "does" when He indwells the born of God. You do not have the Spirit of Christ, thus, your "understanding" is without Light.

    I gave you scripture, which you dismiss and ignore...

    "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Romans 8)

    Here is your version....

    "But if the spiritual mind developed through the affectionate belief of the gospel and the transforming influence of this in the heart and mind dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by the spiritual mind developed through the affectionate belief of the gospel and the transforming influence of this in the heart and mind that dwelleth in you." (Trevor)

    You are spiritually dead wrong Trevor, and it is of your own freewill choice to stay in ignorance of what is plainly written and given us to believe. You refuse God's counsel. You rewrite scripture to suit yourself for whatever motives only God knows.

    Remember these words.....

    "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Wrong! The pronoun "him" in verse 25 refers to Jesus Christ as Yahweh:

    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
    23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord


    Throughout the context Jesus Christ is the direct object whereas "God" is the One directing the providential actions and thus Christ is the "him" and "whom" and "he" and "him" of the context. David is the one speaking and the one foreseeing things about Christ or "concerning him." What he spoke "concerning Him" and what he foresaw concerning him are not one and the same thing. What He spoke "concerning him" concerns who He is as Lord. What David foresaw concerning him was the resurrection from the grave. Your false doctrine has twisted your mind which forces you to twist the scripture to say exactly opposite of what you are attempting to make it say.

    Trevor you must repudiate the actual words of the text and change them to make your translation work.

    What David said in verse 25 is "concerning him" or WHO HE IS as Jehovah.
    What David foresaw in regard to actions concerns what HE DID.

    Furthermore I provided you text after text in Isaiah where Yahew of hosts is the Son of God, none of which you even attempted to respond unto because you can't respond to it without explaining away the obvious meaning.

    Acts 2:31 (KJV): He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


    "HE seeing this before" refers to David. What he Spoke about is "concerning him" or "Christ." Concerning WHO HE IS - He is Lord. Concerning what He does as man is the resurrection from the grave. The Christ is "the Lord" or Yahewh of Hosts as much as the Father is "Yahweh" and Isaiah proves this over and over and over again.


    God says "I change not" and therefore the words "I shall be what I shall be" must be interpreted in immutable terms or equivilent to "I am what I am". If he is something now he will not be later then he is less God now then later and he is speaking of his essential nature. That is precisely why the Pharisees understood the claim of Christ "Before Abraham was I am" to be an express claim to be God and they stated such. Again, Isaiah demands that The Holy One of Israel is "yahweh of Hosts" and the "God" (elohim) of Israel and Creator of heaven and earth just as John 1:1-3 expressly states.
     
    #279 The Biblicist, Apr 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2014
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    paul in Romans calls Jesus the Lord over both the living and the dead, and refers to him as being Yahweh!
     
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