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  #1  
Old 07-27-2003, 10:44 PM
William C William C is offline
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I've got a question for everyone.

I have traditionally held to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, but some passages in scripture seem to throw a wrench into that concept.

Romans 11, in which Paul specifically tells us to fear because we too could be "cut off."

And the parable of the unforgiving servant, who, if you recall was forgiven a great debt and then had that forgiveness removed when he failed to forgive his brother a smaller debt.

Why did Jesus tell this parable? It sounds like the motive was to strike fear in the hearts of his listeners if they were not willing to forgive. Doesn't the OSAS doctrine explain that parable away by removing its threat of having ones forgiveness removed.

Jesus doesn't qualify this parable by saying, "The only reason someone wouldn't forgive their brother is if they weren't really forgiven in the first place." He specifically says the forgiveness was removed.

Does our doctrine undo what Christ was trying to do in this text by explaining away any reason to really fear?

Just asking...
  #2  
Old 07-28-2003, 12:30 PM
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Frogman Frogman is offline
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Yeah Bro. Bill,

I see every where in Scripture when that I read such contradictions by the Spirit such as 1 John
Quote:
1 John 4:13 *Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 *¶And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 *Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 *And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 *¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 *There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 *We love him, because he first loved us.
everyone wants to pervert scripture and teach that "we loved Him before He loved us." That is what is wrong.

Bro. Rest assured, if what he has worked in our hearts can be lost, then there will be no man in heaven except the man Jesus Christ.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton [img]graemlins/wavey.gif[/img]
  #3  
Old 07-28-2003, 01:48 PM
Sherrie Sherrie is offline
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Frogman and Bill...While I understand what you are saying Frogman...I have also lately been wondering the same thing Bill is saying.

What about those who got saved and somewhere down the lane they no longer live the life of a saved person? Or what about Apostasy?

Is it, we just lose the joy in salvation...but still have Salvation?

What about the guy in 1975 who is saved, but from 1986 until now, he has not been any example of a christian? And then just today he comes back to the Lord. Now I know you call this backsliding...but what if it is time to go home and you have backslidden and have not come back to the Lord? Where are you going?

I do not mean this sarcastically. I truly am asking. I have been asking this, and everyone always seems to talk in circles.

Thank you for any input on this.

Sherrie
  #4  
Old 07-28-2003, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Hebrews 12:1 *¶Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 *Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 *For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 *¶Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 *And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 *For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 *If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 *But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 *Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 *For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 *Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 *Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 *And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 *Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 *Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 *Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 *For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
18 *¶For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 *And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 *(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 *And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
22 *But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 *To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 *And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 *See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 *Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 *And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 *Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 *For our God is a consuming fire.
Sherry, I do believe this is a legitimate question that should be asked. But to follow it out that one of the children of God who are bought with the Blood of Christ can finally or ultimately be lost "again" is a denial of the truth of Scripture in calling the gift of God eternal life. To have the possibility of it ever being lost by one who possesses it renders it something far less than eternal life. Then it follows that we do not lose our eternal life, but of a surety are able and often do lose our joy of the salvation of the Lord while in this world.

Note Luke Ch. 1:

vs. 63-79;

The Bible without doubt teaches of an eternal salvation and of a joy of salvation in our human experience. If it is possible for one of the blood bought to wander away such that he no longer feels the chastening hand of God; he IMHO is simply removed from the world as his/her/their witness is no longer to the Glory of God.

Further, if as some believe that the only sin we are condemned for is unbelief; then logically, (forgive me for that, I am not Spock, but I must follow thoughts out to where I can see they extend, if in error, pray mercy from the Lord when I am judged), in essence what a believer must do in order to be lost is to "unbelieve." However you or I may try we cannot and will not by the Grace of God unbeleive.

2 Tim 2.6-13

To fear being cast out is again IMHO a failure of man to know the nature of the Work of Grace accomplished in Christ at the Cross.

As the vss from Luke 1 show to us there was definitely a people (Anna and Simeon also bear witness to this) who looked for the coming of the messiah, the fulfillment of the promises to Abraham, David and Israel through the Messiah; yet the focus of first:

vs. 68: Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

God has both visited his people, he has seen the condition they are in he has weighed them in the balance of His Holiness and found them wanting, yet it is declared by the Holy Ghost in the same breath that He has redeemed His people; thus He has purchased them He has bought them; He has delivered them; this is eternal salvation.

vs. 69: And hath raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

For the purpose:

vs. 72: To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73: The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 74 That he would grant unto us, that we, being delivered out of the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear,

Note now 2 John 8: Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Now no man I have heard will admit his doctrine teaches works, even when it is evident that it does so. Yet here in 2 John vs 8 it is evident that there is possibility of something being lost which "we" (the apostles) have "wrought" or worked. If eternal salvation is by Grace (and I believe it is completely and only by Grace) then it is impossible to call this which is worked by God as something we or the apostles have worked, so then what must be in consideration here is not a view of our eternal gift of life in Christ Jesus, but our experience of "salvation" in the presence of our enemies (or rather the enemies of our Lord, for it is His name alone the world despises and ourselves only for His sake).

This question is not IMHO a result of "can salvation be lost" but it is really wondering where is the full truth held. As we see so many calling on the name of the Lord, but differing with us in our doctrine and teaching; failing to show forth what we have come to believe to be 'bearing fruit' as in John 15 when in truth this bearing will, I believe will teach us to endure in the doctrine once delivered to the saints.

I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed to him against that day. ( 1 Tim 1.12).

Hope these few lines are helpful.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
  #5  
Old 07-28-2003, 03:52 PM
Sherrie Sherrie is offline
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I want to acknowledge you Frogman, and your hard work here on my question. Thank you for your help. I need to think on this before I can make a comment. I want to study this some more.


You are saying...When a person comes to "believe"...there is no way that person can "not believe" after that.

Same as saying once you walk in the "Way", you cannot "not" walk in the "Way".

1.) How does Apostasy fit into this?

2.) A backsliding person still has salvation...they just do not have the joy in that salvation. (this is what I have always thought) But now if they can't "not believe"....how do they backslide? I think this backsliding thing is far more serious than people think.

I am probably not asking correctly. Sorry if I have confused anyone...that was not what I meant to do.

I need to think on this.

Sherrie
  #6  
Old 07-28-2003, 04:04 PM
dianetavegia
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Quote:
But to follow it out that one of the children of God who are bought with the Blood of Christ can finally or ultimately be lost "again" is a denial of the truth of Scripture in calling the gift of God eternal life. To have the possibility of it ever being lost by one who possesses it renders it something far less than eternal life. Then it follows that we do not lose our eternal life, but of a surety are able and often do lose our joy of the salvation of the Lord while in this world.
Excellent reply, Bro. Dallas!

Sherrie, you said:
Quote:
What about those who got saved and somewhere down the lane they no longer live the life of a saved person?
For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

It doesn't matter if that person is not living a life that seems 'saved' to us. We are all sinners and the Bible tells us that one sin is too many .... one sin or a bazillion sins!

Diane
  #7  
Old 07-28-2003, 04:57 PM
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Frogman Frogman is offline
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Thanks Sisters for your kind words.

Sherrie,

Concerning believing unto eternal life this is the whole work of God:

John 6.29

Concerning obedience to 'the way' we are cautioned to not grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4.30). Our disobedience is this grievance. This is sometimes called conditional time salvation, I believe this is worked under the Grace of God in accordance to our obedience to His Word (or according to our walk in the 'way').

Note Ps. 23:

Psalms 23:1 *¶<<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 *He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 *He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 *Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 *Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 *Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.


The two views we are discussing I believe are taught very clearly here.

Concerning your study of this topic, take your time, when you come to the assurance of it then you will know it is by the leading of your Shepherd and not a man.

Consider the work of the Shepherd as you consider this in relation to Ps. 23. Also the words of Christ concerning the 99 and the 1 sheep.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
  #8  
Old 07-28-2003, 08:55 PM
Yelsew
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I've got a question for everyone.

I have traditionally held to the idea of Once Saved Always Saved, but some passages in scripture seem to throw a wrench into that concept.

Romans 11, in which Paul specifically tells us to fear because we too could be "cut off."

And the parable of the unforgiving servant, who, if you recall was forgiven a great debt and then had that forgiveness removed when he failed to forgive his brother a smaller debt.

Why did Jesus tell this parable? It sounds like the motive was to strike fear in the hearts of his listeners if they were not willing to forgive. Doesn't the OSAS doctrine explain that parable away by removing its threat of having ones forgiveness removed.

Jesus doesn't qualify this parable by saying, "The only reason someone wouldn't forgive their brother is if they weren't really forgiven in the first place." He specifically says the forgiveness was removed.

Does our doctrine undo what Christ was trying to do in this text by explaining away any reason to really fear?

Just asking...
Brother Bill, It is not God or God's message that is capable of, or that actually does change, IT IS US! We are the ones who can change from unbeliever to believer and then once again unbeliever. We Go from not having salvation to having salvation and then through not believing lose their salvation, but it is not God that changes!
  #9  
Old 07-29-2003, 11:14 AM
William C William C is offline
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I appreciate everyones comments but no one has addressed the very clear parable of our Savior who clearly teaches that the servants initial forgiveness was removed because he failed to forgive his brother.

The scripture continually talks about us recieving salvation IF we continue in the faith, as if we could choose not to continue in it.

Please tell me how you handle these very clear passages. I don't want to be guilty of removing the fear of the Lord where He desires it to be envolved, do you?

Dallas, I understand that true love drives out fear, but that doesn't mean fear doesn't have its place. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

Our relationship starts with fear and ends with agape love, but fear has its place and I think it has been explained away to the deteriment of the church. Look at teens today, there is no fear of God. They mock him because they don't fear him. We whitewash passages like the one mentioned here with our theological explainations that the scripture never presents as a qualification for these fearfilling texts.
  #10  
Old 07-29-2003, 11:36 AM
Yelsew
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What more need be added to the parable? It is perfectely clear what Jesus means.
 

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