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  #31  
Old 08-30-2004, 07:15 PM
paidagogos paidagogos is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pastor KevinR:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AVL1984:
I know for a fact living here in Murfreesboro that the Rice family hates what is going on with the Sword of the Lord. Not to defame anyone, but Dr. Smith is not all he's cracked up to be. We used to live right around the corner from the Sword, and for a short time attended Franklin Road Baptist Church. I've also attended the church of the late Dr. Curtis Hutson's (former editor of the Sword until his death) son, Dr. Tony Hutson. Both Curtis Hutson and Shelton Smith have turned the Sword into a rag to attack anyone they did not agree with, Dr. Smith doing so more than Dr. Hutson. I go to church with one of Dr. Rice's granddaughters, and she isn't happy at all with what is happening. She says her grandfather would turn over in his grave if he knew what had happened to the Sword.

AVL1984
I've been recieving the Sword since around 1980, and still rec it, although I've been dismayed w/ the direction it has gone. S. Smith spoke at the KJVO school in Haines City, FL, and I'm sure the Dr Rice would disapprove of that.
I read the same article in the Biblical Evangelist, and it's sad to see, as the other poster put it, that Dr Smith has indeed "hijacked" the Sword.
One of S. Smith's preacher boys has taken a church over on Long Island and is in the process of running it into the ground. In a recent issue of the Sword Dr Smith wrote how well he was rec'd when he spoke there in July, which simply wasn't true, acc to a deacon friend, who attends that very church!
I found out a few weeks ago that my former Pastor is on their staff now, and he writes articles for them on Soul Winning. I was surprised that he joined them because he took a similar stand when he was my Pastor in the 70's (Louisville)that J.R.Rice took. I have great respect and love for him and wish him all the best, but personally, I wish he hadn't joined them. If he feels God called him, I leave it in God's hand and my former Pastor has the soul liberty to chose that direction. BTW, he's the Pastor Emeritus of Franklin Rd BC....sorry to ramble....
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I wouldn't call it rambling; it is more accurately called gossiping--all hearsay, opinion, and supposition. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
  #32  
Old 08-30-2004, 07:47 PM
paidagogos paidagogos is offline
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Hogwash, foolishness, nonsense, drivel, poppycock, claptrap, inanities, twaddle, gibberish and baloney!Didn’t it occur to anyone that most of the posters on this thread are doing to Sheldon Smith the very thing for which they are castigating him? This smells of hypocrisy! Posters are uttering the same clichés without making any sensible arguments or defining issues; it is sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. Better yet, it is full of “sound and fury . . . . .(you know the rest).

Here are a few pertinent facts and thoughts that no one has bothered to notice:
1. Joy Martin and the Joyful Woman have associations and do things that were rejected by the Sword circles in the 1960’s & 1970’s.
2. Elizabeth Handford, along with her husband Walter, have left the Fundamentalist circles to associate more in evangelical or neo-evangelical circles. Walt led Southside Baptist Church (Greenville, SC) out of hardcore Fundamentalism. They are no longer part of mainstream Fundamentalism.
3. Joy published her letter in Falwell’s journal. Falwell, of course, has longtime been a pariah of Fundamentalism.
4. TTU, with which Joy and husband are associated, has drifted somewhat from its moorings so that its alumni, for the most part, endorse or support it. Witness its decline in enrollment and the TTU pastors who support other schools such as Crown.
5. The SBC from which JRR withdrew was far less compromised than the supposedly conservative SBC today. Much of the swing toward conservatism in the SBC is due to the more rank liberals retreating and withdrawing rather than the whole becoming more conservative. It is a diluting effect, not purification.
6. On the webpage with Joy Martin’s article, we find an ad for Rick Warren’s appearance at Falwell’s Super Conference. Would JRR have endorsed this? There’s definitely a difference of theology here.
7. The whole argument seems to center around people—JRR vs. Sheldon Smith—not issues. It’s rather like the church where a new man succeeds a pastor of fifty years. Everything the young fellow does is scrutinized and compared to the old man’s and found deficient. Seems that Sheldon just ain’t doing it John’s way.

Read’em and weep!
  #33  
Old 08-30-2004, 08:53 PM
Pastor KevinR Pastor KevinR is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by paidagogos:
Oh, I wouldn't call it rambling; it is more accurately called gossiping--all hearsay, opinion, and supposition. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Sorry, I know exactly what I'm talking about, having beeb a subscriber to the Sword for over twenty years, I've eyewitnessed it's descent into "tabloidism", and elitism. Currently the Sword represents the Neo-Fundamentilists, not the historic Fundamentalists as J.R.Rice. Again, read the link of what the Rice family wrote, who would agree with my assessment.
  #34  
Old 08-30-2004, 09:01 PM
Pastor KevinR Pastor KevinR is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by paidagogos:
Hogwash, foolishness, nonsense, drivel, poppycock, claptrap, inanities, twaddle, gibberish and baloney!Didn’t it occur to anyone that most of the posters on this thread are doing to Sheldon Smith the very thing for which they are castigating him? This smells of hypocrisy! Posters are uttering the same clichés without making any sensible arguments or defining issues; it is sounding brass and tinkling cymbals. Better yet, it is full of “sound and fury . . . . .(you know the rest).

Here are a few pertinent facts and thoughts that no one has bothered to notice:
1. Joy Martin and the Joyful Woman have associations and do things that were rejected by the Sword circles in the 1960’s & 1970’s.
2. Elizabeth Handford, along with her husband Walter, have left the Fundamentalist circles to associate more in evangelical or neo-evangelical circles. Walt led Southside Baptist Church (Greenville, SC) out of hardcore Fundamentalism. They are no longer part of mainstream Fundamentalism.
3. Joy published her letter in Falwell’s journal. Falwell, of course, has longtime been a pariah of Fundamentalism.
4. TTU, with which Joy and husband are associated, has drifted somewhat from its moorings so that its alumni, for the most part, endorse or support it. Witness its decline in enrollment and the TTU pastors who support other schools such as Crown.
5. The SBC from which JRR withdrew was far less compromised than the supposedly conservative SBC today. Much of the swing toward conservatism in the SBC is due to the more rank liberals retreating and withdrawing rather than the whole becoming more conservative. It is a diluting effect, not purification.
6. On the webpage with Joy Martin’s article, we find an ad for Rick Warren’s appearance at Falwell’s Super Conference. Would JRR have endorsed this? There’s definitely a difference of theology here.
7. The whole argument seems to center around people—JRR vs. Sheldon Smith—not issues. It’s rather like the church where a new man succeeds a pastor of fifty years. Everything the young fellow does is scrutinized and compared to the old man’s and found deficient. Seems that Sheldon just ain’t doing it John’s way.

Read’em and weep!
You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists.
  #35  
Old 08-31-2004, 08:19 PM
paidagogos paidagogos is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pastor KevinR:
[b] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
[snip]
Read’em and weep!
You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists.
</font>[/QUOTE]Well, it really doesn’t matter what JRR would think, even though he is not here to defend himself against others who would speak for him, but what matters is what God thinks. It is sheer presumption and folly to speak for another man.
  #36  
Old 08-31-2004, 08:41 PM
paidagogos paidagogos is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pastor KevinR:
[b] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
[snip]
You must read Cloud's stuff, too.
No, I'm not 100% agreement w/ everything Joy, Walt, etc are doing these days, but I'm still convinced that J.R.Rice would disapprove of the Sword's current direction into elitism. I won't fight or be dogmatic about it, but that's my observation over the years (actually been reading the Sword since my Dad started to rec it around 1975). Big difference from then and now.
Read and only weeping for the elitist mindset of too many Fundamentalists.
</font>[/QUOTE]Elitism, huh? [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] So you’ve been reading the Sword since 1975—makes you the expert? Sounds a bit like elitism to me. Well, I’ve been reading it since 1969! Makes me better, huh? [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

And, then there’s Joy’s letter. It’s ironic that a woman is carrying the banner in this war. Of course, there are precedents—Ellen G. White, Aimee S. McPherson, et. al. I really failed to find anything persuasive or much cerebral matter at all in it. Seems her whole claim to credibility was her relationship to the old man—JRR. If this doesn’t smack of elitism, I don’t know what does. She’s part of the royal family and beyond suspicion. Since when did being a preacher’s kid qualify one to speak on anything? Some PK’s have turned out to be real rascals. Oliver B. Greene’s kids have never commanded the respect that I had for the old man. Then, there’s Jack’s boy—well, better leave that one alone.

The fact is that we don’t know where JRR would be on these issues today. Lots of men have changed their positions since JRR’s demise. He could have changed a lot too. It might surprise a lot of us! After all, with his dictation theory of inspiration (see The God Breathed Book), he might be KJVO.

BTW, what’s with the cut about David Cloud. Is this an amateurish attempt to smear me with guilt by association? Yeah, I read his stuff. I’m great friends with his son, Jonathan. Bro. Cloud and his family are doing a great work for the Lord in Nepal. Who are you to judge God’s servant? So, what do you know about him? Or, do you just not like his views? Seems a bit narrow-minded and prejudiced to me. David Cloud I know, but who are you?
  #37  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:43 PM
AVL1984 AVL1984 is offline
 
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paid says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Well, it really doesn’t matter what JRR would think, even though he is not here to defend himself against others who would speak for him, but what matters is what God thinks. It is sheer presumption and folly to speak for another man.

AVL1984 says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think Dr. Rices works speak from beyond the grave. He was very clear on things he stood for, and it is a far cry from where Sheldon Smith and Curtis Hutson took the Sword of the Lord. He did not viciously attack people as they do. He allowed room for differences of opinion, where they don't. Paidagogos, you speak of something you know little or nothing about, and it shows.

AVL1984
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  #38  
Old 08-31-2004, 09:50 PM
AVL1984 AVL1984 is offline
 
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Paid says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; David Cloud I know, but who are you?

AVL1984 says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The same could be asked of you, couldn't it? I receive Clouds newsletters, eletters, etc., on a regular basis, but I don't agree with him on everything. You seem a bit prejudiced and haughty yourself. God tell us that we have the right to judge by the fruit the people put forth. Hutson, Smith and Cloud have put forth some very divisive items and positions.

AVL1984
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  #39  
Old 08-31-2004, 10:35 PM
Bro.Bill Bro.Bill is offline
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I started reading the Sword in 1978. I also read several of Dr. Rices books. Dr. Rice was not a KJVO person and was VERY CLEAR on that subject. He also was not an eletist.He did beleive in living a separated life though.I think it is sad the direction mr. smith has taken the Sword of the Lord.
  #40  
Old 09-01-2004, 01:11 PM
Pastor KevinR Pastor KevinR is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AVL1984:
Paid says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; David Cloud I know, but who are you?

AVL1984 says:&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;The same could be asked of you, couldn't it? I receive Clouds newsletters, eletters, etc., on a regular basis, but I don't agree with him on everything. You seem a bit prejudiced and haughty yourself. God tell us that we have the right to judge by the fruit the people put forth. Hutson, Smith and Cloud have put forth some very divisive items and positions.

AVL1984
AVL- you answered for me, thanks. Mr P is pretty good at twisting things around. His type and S. Smith's elitism is somewhat new to Fundamentalism. Note he tries to say I am attemting guilt by associating him w/ Cloud. NOT TRUE! I was attempting; perhaps poorly, that his info seems to be straight from Mr Cloud, that's all! I too read David Cloud's newsletters, some are very informative, but sadly he fosters the elitism rampant in Fundamentalism.
Mr P seems to imply that Joy has no right to express her opinion even though she's J.R.Rice's daughter, and knew her father better than he does, Cloud, Smith, etc...because she's a woman! (like E.G. White)Bro Rice had no sons, so who else in the family can express their dismay at the current direction of the Sword?
As far as S. Smith taking the Sword in the direction he deems necessary, good for him! I still rec the Sword, despite it's elitist leanings, but I no longer in good conscience can send my monthly financial support.
BTW, my Dad stopped recieving the Sword because he had signed up for their lifetime membership subscription, then they turned around asking for more money to continue his subscription! A far better publication, and it's **free**, although they ask for contributions, is the Biblical Evangelist, edited by Robert Sumner, who's not afraid to expose the narrowness, and elitism in Fundamentalism. BTW, this is where I read Joy's article, I wasn't even aware that it appeared in Falwell's publication till I read the first post in this thread.
For those who have read the Sword for years, even since 1969, and think that the Sword is as good or better now, I'm at a loss for words.
 

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