Regeneration: Is it a prelude to OR the Act of Salvation ~Born Again~

It has been discussed many times on the BB, but I don't remember the last thread that was specific to what Regeneration actually is and entails thereby establishing it as the Act BEFORE or OF Salvation.

I don't 'specifically' want this to be a C/A debate (though it will be by nature) but what I want to actaully discuss is -

1. What regeneration is?

2. What it does?

3. How it does it?

(plz, refrain from using 'born-agian' AT PRESENT since there are 2 views of what the word entails and could get confusing till we establish our positions better within the thread. You may acknoweldge it as sysnonmous with what word you 'would' apply to it if you must at the outset. Thank you.)

Please leave aside the 'dead in sin' issue IF POSSIBLE (I don't want a 'dead in sin' thread but a thread examining the nature of 'Regeneration' and it's function with regard to the 3 above mentioned questions.

I will obviously start:

It would appear (at least to me) that when a person is regenerated before salvation, there is no need for 'faith' which scripture states brings salvation - Believe and be saved. Why? Because the person who is regenerated before salvation, according to some, is (1) given a new nature AND (2) now has the Holy Spirit indwelling them or residing in them (though not technically filling them) AND (3) that their relationship to and with God the Father has already been reconciled (thus the new nature and indwelling Spirit of GOd) AND (4) they are now IN Christ.

The problem in the person being 'reconciled' before faith is that the person who is reconciled is considered justified toward God and also sanctified by God making the person in a right relationship with God - Righteous. All this without faith ever being excersized nor repentance made. All of these are against what scripture states : that they are all imputed by or through Faith. (see below)

The scriptural mandate for one to have faith in order to be saved is no longer valid since the work of salvation is already done before repentence or Faith is even acknowledged. If this is true what we have is salvation BEFORE repentance and faith and not as says the scriptre "repent and beleive", "repent or you shall all likewise perish" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" et. (Mar 1:15, Luk 13:3,5 , Act 16:31, Rom 10:9 et.)

IF a person is regenerated by God before faith, they are in fact made alive unto God because they have been reconciled unto God by Christ's propitiation BEFORE faith. Therefore they are IN Christ.

As I previously stated, for this to be true:
1. Then they are ALREADY sanctified - or set apart for and by God ; being pure
2. and to be sanctified you must ALREADY be Justified
....a. that he WILL BE righteous (or in a right relationship with God).
3. And all of these are done by the Holy Spirit who is now indwelling the Non-BELIEVER (or one who has not yet believed).

But unfortunately the indwelling Holy Spirit, sanctification, justification, and righteousness are all imputed ONLY AFTER Faith is excersized.

It is my belief that the process of regeneration reveals that it IS the EVENT of Salvation which is of grace by faith and not the precurser to it. Otherwise you have the cart before the horse. Regeneration also only appears twice in scripture and it is never seen as that which is before salvation.

I believe you can not be regenerate (which MUST include justification and sanctification and the infilling of the Holy Spirit) before faith.
WHY?

It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

All of these show (and other verses as well) that unless faith is FIRST excerized there is no new birth which constitutes all of the above; For they are all BY FAITH.

This is why I beleive regeneration IS salvation which is imputed to us 'by faith' and both terms are describe as being born-again (the New Birth).

Discussion is now open :wavey:

 

First TCG, I address what is espoused by those who claim regeneration BEFORE faith. Do I really need to quote the scriptures you already know and claim to be regeneration before salvation?

The scriptures I DID provide establish that there is no justification, sanctification, washing away of sin, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, being a new creation, nor righteousness given apart from faith FIRST.

That which follows (as you say) is exactly what is contended to happen before they are saved by those who hold regeneration before salvation. However scripture states these things transpire 'by Faith'.

EDITTED IN-->> Let me clarify something - Those whom I have spoken with that hold to regeneration before faith, state the Holy Spirit give man a new nature and thereafter indwells the non-believer (though does not fill the non-beleiver) and that the non-believers is reconciled to God already. All of these things encompass Justification, Sanctification, cleasing from sin, righteousness as well.

But this is why I asked YOU to answer my three question and show support how they establish this regeneration before faith.

As I stated previously; the scriptures I DID provide establish that there is no justification, sanctification, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, being a new creation, nor righteousness given apart from faith FIRST.

The scripture only speaks about regeneration twice in the whole of scriputer.
Once regarding our salvation which now is (Titus 3:4-7), and the fullness of our salvation which is to come (Mat 19:25-30)

I have in accordance with those things believed that are to happen BEFORE salvation which is what they call regeneration. But still, No problem, here they BOTH are:
#1

The salvation here is stated to have been accomplished through or by the washing (synonomous with washing away of sin) of regeneration (the new birth) and renewing (to completely change for the better- new or redesign so to speak) of the Holy Ghost. This identifies the New Birth to be something completely different from the old man seperated from God with one who is made to be in union with God by the Holy Ghost.

More specifically and to the point however is the fact that savlation is equated with this New Birth called regeneration which is typified by 'cleansing of sin' and a change toward God because of the Change the Holy Ghost brings.

This would mean the person has their sins removed due to the washing of regeneration (no need to repent) and are in unified with Christ because of their new nature designed/created by the Holy Ghost (no need for faith). Thus you see the author state in vs 6 states the Holy Ghost/Spirit was given to them abundantly and vs 7 they are also stated to be 'Justified' and 'heirs' (children of God). And you can not be a child of God except by faith.

Now if these be true, then there is no need for faith nor repentance since by these verses regarding regeneration declares they are saved with all that the word entails biblically: - being washed or cleased of sin, have the indwelling Spirit of God, justified, and heirs of the promise. You have a scriptural problem my friend because scripture states explicitely salvation IS BY faith and not that Faith confirms we are saved. By grace are you saved THROUGH faith.

So either regeneration IS salvation therefore we must repent and believe
- or -
It presedes salvation whereby faith and repentance have no purpose of value because the person is ALREADY saved.


And #2

You will note that regeneration here is referencing the culmination or total fulfillment regarding of our salvation here (new bodies, et..) So AGAIN regeneration IS salvation and not a prelude to it.

 

Amen!
Which is why I asked you to answer the three questions.

I did. It has to do with being called 'Children of God' and 'heir'. Which we become 'by faith'

There are as many different types of Calvanism as there are Baptists .
That is why I wanted to see how people answered the 3 question I provided, as a means to know how each person(s) of those who hold to 'regeneration preceding salvation'.

I understand. Yet that text of 1 John 5:1 lends no wieght to regeneration before salvation. Bu tI will deal with that later in our discussion because it is central in your view.

However, what you have not done is prove 'born' equals regeneration OUTSIDE of salvation. Unless you believe the person is saved first then come to beleive.

Ok, then how can a person be 'born again' and NOT be in a rightor reconciled relationship with God, through which only the means of justification, sanctification, et. are apart?

This is why I requested you please answer the three questions.

I agree that men have been hardened and blinded by sin and that man needs a divine work.
1.. But what does this divine work entail?
2. If man is given a new nature IS THIS NOT 'the New Birth'?

3. And man who now no longer dead but alive in sin and not reconciled, nor having the Holy Spirit indwelling him will come to God?
4. How does this work if there is no power in those things God gives him (faith, new nature) to come TO God?
Since Paul says the new man can not champion over the old nature without the empowering of the Holy Spirit and THAT is not done without His indwelling. In light of this I must ask:
5. By what Power does the New Man operate, his own?

Only regarding your view of 'Called'.
I can go on in this but not yet either since you have not even answered the questions of the OP.
However I will state this: It must be inferred or presummed to assume Paul is equating such a complex process into one word rather than just the plain reading of the text - Those He did predestinate (to be conformed to the image of His Son) He called (as in Gospel call), Those whom He called... And since it is speaking of a particular set of people we can infer the non-believers in this because the context is refering only of believers.


I only ask that we begin at the OP's questions so we can better elaborate brother. I look forward to discussing this more, since I believe I still have mountains to learn regardless what I think I understand.

 

I appreciate what you have contributed, but without answering the other 2 questions it becomes a moot point (so to speak) for others to 'understand' how it all fits together or at the very minimum how another understands their views. It is for this reason I set up the Op so regeneration can be shown as either a prelude To salvation or the very Act of salvation itself.

 

Where do you find "regeneration is sanctification" and "CONVERSION (turning toward God) which is justification".
Scripture makes no such distinction and I know of, plz elaborate.

This verse is not about submitting spiritually but God having the power to change EVEN our bodies.

How exacly do you draw this conclusion?

But my biggest question is:
Are you saying that regeneration (being born again) is not a completed act until we stand before the Bema Seat Judgment?

k

That make absolutely no sense.

 

Deleted by me.

 

Thank you for your responce. However it appears you did not read the OP carefully

(emphasis in unline and bold mine)

If your position is that born again means saved/regenerated then simply state such so that as the discussion progresses others know the different meanings that are held to same word - born or born again.
Since there are two basic views of what 'born' or 'born again' means. But they all have the same core meaning (a new creation, r regeneration) Thus what I am wanting to define is what regeneration IS, WHEN it happens, and it HOW it opperates.
This is why I requested we not us AT PRESENT the term born again because until we understand regeneration we will not be able to identify just born again properly means.

Thus I ask that each person please answer the OP's 3 questions.

I started off by showing Regeneration can not be a prelude TO salvation because of all it entails, thus I believe it must be the Act OF salvation.