Say what, Senator Obama????

Hey Ken

I bet Obama rides in an SUV, and eats all he wants while the ac blows at 72 degrees....they always imply that we should make sacrifices that they dont.

AJ

 

Before I took a leave of absence from the board, I believe you were an Obama fan, KenH. What happened?

Hope all is well,
BiR

 

He's been converted by Bob Barr!

 

Interesting.
Personally, I would vote for ANYONE before I cast a vote for another NeoConservative like McCain.

Regards,
BiR

 

Agreed. :thumbs:

 

Just curious... when did McCain make the transition from "maverick" to "neo-conservative"?

 

A little bit of whats ahead if he becomes president.

 

What is the objection here? I see Mr. Obama as stating the obvious:

1. The world is a closed system. When someone pollutes in country A, country B is affected.

2. There is an environmental problem that we need to take seriously.

An obedient Christian understands the creation is to be cared for - the world is not our private gold mine or ashtray. Now perhaps Mr. Obama is not thinking in these terms, but I see this statement as lining up perfectly well with the values of the obedient Christian.

The fact that Christians and environmentalists line up on different sides so often is a curious phenomena which may be a uniquely American one. It is my understanding that in the UK, the church and the environmental movement generally are one the same side on environmental issues.

And I think thats' the way it should be. Without some obvious qualifications, the church should be fiercely advocating for the protection of God's creation.

 

The objection I have to it, is the question of what is he going to do about people that put's their AC on 71 degrees?...

His liberal types will want to outlaw it.

Ban SUVs, and Big Macs... That will be the answer to the worlds problems according to socialist progressives in the democratic party!

 

I'll tell you what the problem is with it. This is not in line with the principles America was established with. What BHO wants is to make more laws that hurt our economy, are contrary to our Constitution, and advance an evil mindset, communism. I dont care how you all do it in Canada. But down here less government is what this country was founded on.

 

Are you placing American values ahead of Scriptural ones? They do not line up all the time, you know.

The pursuit of "our prosperity" and the strength of "our economy" are the last thing on Christ's kingdom agenda. This thread of thinking - we need to this and that to preserve "our" prosperity - shows how much the church has strayed from the Kingdom values that Jesus advocated.

I doubt Jesus will approve of lawmaking that promotes the wealth of an already rich country, the USA, at the expense of "the least of these" or at the expense of damaging His beloved creation. I am not saying that we should not "work the world", and that there will be some damage to creation as a result. I am saying we should have a different mindset - one that does not see creation as "ours for the taking", one where we respect the creation and do everything reasonable to protect it.

Example: I cannot really see how driving an SUV is really necessary for anyone who does not have a big family (and even then, I have my doubts). Why buy one, knowing that it uses more gas, creates more pollution etc? It is one thing for creation to be damaged in the pursuit of the necessities of life (e.g. food and shelter). But an SUV?

The US Constitution is not inspired scripture, scripture is inspired scripture. And lets not place "national" cultural values ahead of Biblical ones.

 

The premise of your post is in error since your view on creation is unbiblical.

 

Question: Are you taking the position that the laws of Scripture ought to be the laws of the US?

I worry everytime someone on either the right or the left says "I doubt that Jesus.... (whatever).

Of course, what we do effects other countries. What I would reject is that the government ought to make laws based on what's best for another country and not what is best for our own country.

 

How so? What is unBiblical about my views on creation? Please be specific. Note what God says to Adam:

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it

 

Basically yes. The values that we see expounded by Jesus and the principles we see in the Old Testament should indeed be the basis on which each nation of the world should be run.

A lot of people seem to think that the Kingdom is about our "inner spiritual lives" and that the way we govern our society - the "laws of the land" - should be run in according to secular values. I see no evidence in the Scriptures to support such an approach.

Jesus claims Kingship and authority over it all. And Satan, no doubt, is thrilled when Christians adandon pursuit of implementing Kingdom principles in all institutions of our society.

I am not suggesting we stone adulterers, although I can perhaps see you might think I am leaning in that direction.

And I worry when the rich and the powerful protect their interests by "kicking God upstairs He belongs" so that we can protect our wealth and power. Make no mistake, there is a powerful motive of "protecting our power" that is behind efforts to expunge God from public life (including government)

We need to treat all citizens of the world as what they are - God's precious creations. An American is of no more value than anyone else. There is nothing wrong with pursuing the prosperity of the US, unless it is done at the expense of others. And I suggest that it often is done at the expense of others. And I point the same figure at my own country and others as well.

 

First you make creation equal to man as you insist in the false doctrine that Christ died to redeem creation. Your imposition of this on scripture is clear and it is in complete error. There will be a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1). Creation is not in the process of redemption and any redemption occurring is not a process but an event (Revelation 5:9). This world is not being redeemed else you would not have to insist we do specific things you perceive to take care of it. Creation is only getting worse as is man (Matt 24:6,12). Neither man nor creation is getting progressively better. Our redemption is in the future (1 Peter 1:3-5) All other creation will not be redeemed but made new.

Second you take a portion of scripture of God's direction to Adam and make a failed application to the current world situation. This is another imposition on scripture. After Adam fell creation was cursed by God. It is no longer what it was in the garden. Creation now makes things difficult for us ( Genesis 3:17-19, Matt 24:7). God told Adam to care for it in the Garden and then kicked him out. At this point there was not the same command or concern for it. Creation is now in adversity to man as a result of the curse. Man no longer has the ability to care for it as he did in the garden.

 

So you will pick and choose which Old testament laws and principles of Jesus you apply. Amazing that you want some and not others.

Personally, I'd rather that the USA was run by the constitution which does not kick God upstairs.

In terms of one country being special, you also seem to forget that the laws of the OT were because one nation was special. God blessed, chose and made Israel special... so maybe God does think one nation is better than another.

Do you also think that Venezuela and the oil producing states are not also enriching themselves at the expense of every other country? Or are we just getting what we deserve?

 

I have not done this at all, although some further explanation might be needed.

The Torah - the Law of Moses - has been retired. It no longer applies as a set of codified laws. The Torah had a specific purpose - which I will not go into here - and that purpose has been fulfilled. Besides, the Torah was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

And yet Torah is described by the Psalmist as God's perfect law.

So I think we need to respect Paul's clear teaching that Torah has been reitired, while retaining respect for the principles that underlie it, and try to order our society accordingly.

It most certainly does kick God upstairs - the whole separation of church and state. There could be no more clear example of kicking God out of public life than to push Him out of the institutions that govern the land.

Israel was chosen for a specific purpose in God's redemptive plan. That plan was fulfilled in Christ. Now let's see what Paul has to say about "one nation being better than others":

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

I do think that such countries are indeed exploiting others.

 

Paul, from Romans 8:

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God