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  #1  
Old 09-09-2011, 03:46 PM
JesusFan JesusFan is offline
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Default Is EVEN The Faith To Believe A Gift From/Of God?

As per Ephesians 2:8/9?
  #2  
Old 09-09-2011, 04:07 PM
sag38 sag38 is offline
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It is not speaking of faith being the gift. Salvation is the gift. Very easy if one doesn't try to read between the lines or interpret with an agenda already in mind.

Last edited by sag38; 09-09-2011 at 04:09 PM.
  #3  
Old 09-09-2011, 08:43 PM
Tom Butler Tom Butler is offline
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Philippians 1:29
Quote:
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,
Sounds like saving faith has been granted to us who believe.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:53 PM
DHK DHK is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom Butler View Post
Philippians 1:29
Sounds like saving faith has been granted to us who believe.
because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, (Philippians 1:29) Darby
There are two privileges that are given to every believer:
1. "the believing on him," that is, salvation.
2. "suffering for him also."

I do not believe that this verse teaches that faith is given as a gift.
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I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
  #5  
Old 09-09-2011, 11:15 PM
Tom Butler Tom Butler is offline
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Originally Posted by DHK View Post
because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also, (Philippians 1:29) Darby
There are two privileges that are given to every believer:
1. "the believing on him," that is, salvation.
2. "suffering for him also."

I do not believe that this verse teaches that faith is given as a gift.
Yeah, we sorta skip over the suffering part, don't we?

I see the granting of faith as more than just the privilege of believing on Him. And more than just granting all the ability to exercise faith. I see it as the actual gift of faith, given to his elect.



Obviously, we'll come at this from different directions. But we do agree on this: Eternal life is the gift of God, given without regard to merit on our part (since we have none).
  #6  
Old 09-09-2011, 11:59 PM
The Archangel The Archangel is offline
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Yes, faith is a gift.

But, we must be careful with Ephesians 2:8-9. Knowing the Greek and the issues, it would be easy to say, "See...faith is a gift." While I would agree that faith is a gift, this particular passage does not single-out faith as the gift. According to most scholars, salvation is the gift. We must be careful not to ignore the "grace" part. Grace and faith are a gift; they are two sides of the same coin and are, therefore, inseparable. When God grants salvation, both grace and faith are given.

In the Book of Genesis, in particular, it is relatively easy to see God taking the necessary steps to discipline those whom He has chosen. For example, Jacob is a dirty, rotten scoundrel. Yet, he is the one whom God has chosen. When Jacob is with his parents, when he steals Esau's birthright, when he flees to Rebekah's family, etc., he is most definitely not a believer. Yet, God wrestles with him, He molds him, He shapes him. God ensures that--through His own divine intervention--Jacob will be transformed. Jacob will become a believer. Jacob comes along slowly. The primary gift given to Jacob is grace. Because of God's grace, faith is given through tedious development. Grace is not given because of faith.

As for inherent faith vs. saving faith...I say there must be a difference. We all have faith, for example, that if you drive your car over a bridge or through a tunnel that the bridge or tunnel won't fall apart and kill you. We place our faith in engineers whom we have never met. We have faith that their math was right and we have faith that those who constructed the bridge or tunnel were faithful to the engineer's designs.

This is not the same type of faith that is required for salvation.

Of first importance, we have to realize inherent faith (the kind that takes us over the bridge) does not require us to change to be conformed to anyone's image or likeness. Saving faith does, in fact, require our conformity to Christ.

So, while they might bear the same name, "faith" of an inherent nature and "faith" of a saving nature are not as closely related as some would have us think.

The kind of faith--saving faith--that causes us to leave all and follow Christ is not typical nor inherent.

That's my 1AM musing for the day.

Blessings,

The Archangel
  #7  
Old 09-10-2011, 01:46 AM
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psalms109:31 psalms109:31 is offline
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What we believe and the work in our lives to get us to believe comes from God.

I think we all agree with that.

But God does not take away our responsible to not to be wise in our own eyes, trust in Him and not lean on our own understanding.

That we stop listen and learn.

One side see our role and the other side sees God role in our salvation.

To me for God to actually place two roads before us, to place life and death before us through Jesus and for God to have a genuine desire for us to choose Jesus and live doesn't get rid of God sovereignty because it is Him who has chosen who will be saved those who trust in His Son to a point to listen and learn.

We don't have to, we can just walk away from Jesus like the young rich ruler and walk away from life eternal.


I have no problem with what God convinced me of in my youth, for i still believe it today.
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Last edited by psalms109:31; 09-10-2011 at 02:00 AM.
  #8  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JesusFan View Post
As per Ephesians 2:8/9?
Yes, faith is a gift of God. But those verses are talking about salvation being the gift, and not faith. Faith is the "vessel" by which Grace/salvation flows, so without faith, there can be no Grace.
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Jer. 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
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Old 09-10-2011, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler View Post
Philippians 1:29
Sounds like saving faith has been granted to us who believe.
Amen, Brother, amen.
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Jer. 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
  #10  
Old 09-10-2011, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Archangel View Post
Yes, faith is a gift.

But, we must be careful with Ephesians 2:8-9. Knowing the Greek and the issues, it would be easy to say, "See...faith is a gift." While I would agree that faith is a gift, this particular passage does not single-out faith as the gift. According to most scholars, salvation is the gift. We must be careful not to ignore the "grace" part. Grace and faith are a gift; they are two sides of the same coin and are, therefore, inseparable. When God grants salvation, both grace and faith are given.

In the Book of Genesis, in particular, it is relatively easy to see God taking the necessary steps to discipline those whom He has chosen. For example, Jacob is a dirty, rotten scoundrel. Yet, he is the one whom God has chosen. When Jacob is with his parents, when he steals Esau's birthright, when he flees to Rebekah's family, etc., he is most definitely not a believer. Yet, God wrestles with him, He molds him, He shapes him. God ensures that--through His own divine intervention--Jacob will be transformed. Jacob will become a believer. Jacob comes along slowly. The primary gift given to Jacob is grace. Because of God's grace, faith is given through tedious development. Grace is not given because of faith.

As for inherent faith vs. saving faith...I say there must be a difference. We all have faith, for example, that if you drive your car over a bridge or through a tunnel that the bridge or tunnel won't fall apart and kill you. We place our faith in engineers whom we have never met. We have faith that their math was right and we have faith that those who constructed the bridge or tunnel were faithful to the engineer's designs.

This is not the same type of faith that is required for salvation.

Of first importance, we have to realize inherent faith (the kind that takes us over the bridge) does not require us to change to be conformed to anyone's image or likeness. Saving faith does, in fact, require our conformity to Christ.

So, while they might bear the same name, "faith" of an inherent nature and "faith" of a saving nature are not as closely related as some would have us think.

The kind of faith--saving faith--that causes us to leave all and follow Christ is not typical nor inherent.

That's my 1AM musing for the day.

Blessings,

The Archangel
Well, I agree that faith is a gift of God, but do not agree that there are varying degrees of faith, or more than one faith.

Eph. 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

You have faith(singular and not plural) and unbelief. There isn't faiths and unbelief(s).

Rom. 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So as you can plainly see, you have faith(singular) and sin/unbelief, not faiths.
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Jer. 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
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