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  #1  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:37 PM
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Default Dave Ramsey, Dan Miller & the self help gospel

Dave Ramsey has some great financial advice, but the sad truth is that he also preaches self help and unfortunately has praised Joel Osteen, and TD Jakes (two heretics from the Word of Faith Movement). The same can be said of Dan Miller whom is a expert in his field. But also preaches self help and has praised Joel Osteen, and Robert Schuler.---- Stand for preachers that preach against the self help gospel (James MacDonald, John MacArthur, and Erwin Lutzer).

Should we separate from people like Ramsey and Miller? I think a strong case can be made for ecclesiastical separation. But no question Ramsey is a expert in the financial world, and Miller in the career field. Their books are the best of the best. But when reading their material, make sure you have enough discernment to filter out the good from the self help.

Last edited by evangelist6589; 09-30-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:41 PM
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I am happy to recommend both Ramsey and Miller.

Both have outstanding ministries unfettered by controversy and are biblically based. I find both to be wonderful examples in life and ministry.

There is 100% no reason to consider separation.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:43 PM
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I think most are wise and mature enough to appreciate the financial advice given by Ramsey while simply refusing to go along with "theological" advice or support that he might offer. As for "taking action", that, in my opinion should be relegated to his "home church". If he claims the name of Christ and the designation "christian", then I (or anyone else) can choose whether or not they should seek fellowship with him.

I like Ramsey and appreciate his financial advice and appreciate that his world view, as best as I can determine, is based upon his Christian faith.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by preachinjesus View Post
I am happy to recommend both Ramsey and Miller.

Both have outstanding ministries unfettered by controversy and are biblically based. I find both to be wonderful examples in life and ministry.

There is 100% no reason to consider separation.
Do you read your Bible? Do you know who Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, and TD Jakes are? Have you heard the podcasts where these have been praised? Ramsey also aligns himself up with Warren (whom is another self help guro).

Do you believe in the self help gospel? Look I never said that Ramsey & Miller are not experts in their fields. They certainly have great books. Butů. we must use discernment, as their is also allot of self help in their books.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by quantumfaith View Post
I think most are wise and mature enough to appreciate the financial advice given by Ramsey while simply refusing to go along with "theological" advice or support that he might offer. As for "taking action", that, in my opinion should be relegated to his "home church". If he claims the name of Christ and the designation "christian", then I (or anyone else) can choose whether or not they should seek fellowship with him.

I like Ramsey and appreciate his financial advice and appreciate that his world view, as best as I can determine, is based upon his Christian faith.
Yes no question his financial advice is great. But that is not the topic of this thread. The thread is concerning the self help gospel. And unfortunately both he and Miller are right on board advertising that gospel.

Listen to the teachings of John MacArthur, Erwin Luzter, and James McDonald.
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist6589 View Post
Yes no question his financial advice is great. But that is not the topic of this thread. The thread is concerning the self help gospel. And unfortunately both he and Miller are right on board advertising that gospel.

Listen to the teachings of John MacArthur, Erwin Luzter, and James McDonald.
Thanks but I prefer to listen to:

David Jeremiah
Ravi Zacharias
Andy Stanley
Charles Stanley
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Absurdity, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. (Bierce)
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (I think that I think, therefore I think that I am.) (Bierce)
Genius - to know without having learned; to draw just conclusions from unknown premises; to discern the soul of things (Bierce)
Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.
www.wiregrasschurch.org
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Old 09-30-2011, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist6589 View Post
Do you read your Bible?
Clearly not as much as you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist6589
Do you know who Joel Osteen, Robert Schuler, and TD Jakes are? Have you heard the podcasts where these have been praised? Ramsey also aligns himself up with Warren (whom is another self help guro).
Hmmm...again are these men or demons masquerading as men? Really man? Come on. This is the kind of junk that just gets in the way of living a gospel centered life.

Do I listen to Pastors Osteen, Schuler, or Jakes often? No. Do I recommend them to others? Nope. But I have enough discernment to be able to see good biblical principles (ala Ramsey and Miller) and encourage my people to use them.

I'll be completely honest, at the church where I get to serve we offer Ramsey's Financial Peace University at least three times a year. Last year we had over 200 people go through the course. It has helped all of them. The stories of freedom from financial bondage we have are amazing. Also, our giving has gone up considerably, and we get to support more missions and outreach efforts because of it. The benefits of Ramsey's biblical approach are just terrific. About three or four months ago we hosted a simulcast of his leadership course. It attracted over one hundred leaders from the community that would never step foot into a church. It was hit. He used biblical principles to teach leadership. I like Ramsey a lot. He's an outstanding man, good Christian, and wonderful leader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evangelist6589
Do you believe in the self help gospel? Look I never said that Ramsey & Miller are not experts in their fields. They certainly have great books. Butů. we must use discernment, as their is also allot of self help in their books.
How do you define "self help gospel?" Because I don't see either Ramsey or Miller espousing it. Quite simply they are partnering with other ministries to help people in ways that are significant.

What precise points of error (outside of affiliation...whatever that means) in both men's work do you find. Please be specific. Cite works and pages and let us review them all instead of just guilt by association.

How about instead of besmirching two good men's character we keep focused on what is central. Instead of being outraged for the sake of being outraged we focus our passions on stuff that matters.

You there is a Christian pastor in Iran getting ready to be executed, hows about we focus some attention and passion on that actual miscarriage of justice rather than dreaming up new ways to beat up fellow believers.
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:49 PM
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I do not like Ramsey -

I prefer Clark Howard

I used to have Larry Burkett on my radio station, but in the past few years he has gone home to be with the Lord. His organization merged with another group and is now known as Crown Financial Ministries
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  #9  
Old 09-30-2011, 10:23 PM
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Clark Howard is a good one too.
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Absurdity, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion. (Bierce)
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum (I think that I think, therefore I think that I am.) (Bierce)
Genius - to know without having learned; to draw just conclusions from unknown premises; to discern the soul of things (Bierce)
Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret.
www.wiregrasschurch.org
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  #10  
Old 10-01-2011, 09:55 AM
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There are 2 issues here:

1. Secondary Separation - There is a large debate about whether we should separate, not only from those who deny certain important truths, but also from those who do not themselves separate from such people, so if I think Dave Ramsey is OK, but he is not discerning enough to know that Joel Osteen is NOT ok, should I then automatically separate from Dave?

2. Complete Separation - Let's assume for a second that Dave Ramsey actually teaches some contrary beliefs. Should I then ignore and shun his financial advice. If I need to get legal advice, am I bound to find a lawyer who is both a Christian and agrees with me on all the major doctrines, or would any lawyer do?
So my point here is that since Dave Ramsey has some valid financial advice, We can accept that while showing discernment about his spiritual advice. It may be something we bring up with our church people who may not be so discerning...but if I know a couple who is struggling with debt, I'm going to tell them to get something from Dave ramsey.
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