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  #11  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:04 PM
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mandym mandym is offline
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Originally Posted by agedman View Post
According to some on a recently closed thread, Christ had two natures.

I do not hold this view.

Christ was "God in the flesh" and that in that statement He had no dual competing natures as believers must contend, but a single nature as the Scriptures state - fully God and fully human.

The Nicene creed and LBC (1689) both reflecting this phenomena. The Holy God Nature of the Word (being coexistent and equal with God) and the nature of human without sin (as the First Adam was created - formed without sin) were united and became the single nature of The Lord Jesus Christ. The two natures did not "coexistent" but became completely united and inseparable.

There is really no "likeness" to illustrate this phenomena. For if one considers any alloy or compound, the atomic particles can be separated out. Even "basic" atomic structure can be split. No human reasoned example can be found to give other than by seeing Christ and God in action and relationship to each other and toward creation. Even Christ said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." And in another place, "I and the Father are one." Isaiah said, "...as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." Being completely human and completely God is nearly incomprehensible, and at best only in minor part grasp by human rationalization efforts.

It is important to emphasize that the "human nature" that currently rules over the unregenerate is NOT the pure nature in which Adam was created, but one that is sin filled and perverted.

The human nature that was united to that of the Nature of God (The Word) was the pre-fall Eden pure holy nature of the first Adam who could look God "in the eye - face to face" and fellowship together each evening. It knew no sin, nor was prone to sin. Yet, just as that first Adam, able to be tested and tempted in all points.

As the LBC 1689 states:
"...according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man... The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son..."
The statement does not hold that the "two natures" remained independent.

The statement states that they were "united" that they became "inseparably joined."

That is they became "one."

Because of this "oneness," the character and nature of the Father can be seen displayed in different characteristics than that of the Son and to which the Son actively submitted.

The Son, hungered, thirsted, got tired, was needy, in all points temped as humankind, and have a will that desires and hopes.

The Father cannot hunger, thirst, get tired, is not needy, cannot be tempted, and the will and/or desires of the Father are demands and commands.

The Father's will is/was considered a command by the Son to obey.

The desire and will of Christ showed longing and hope, but not necessarily fulfilled (think of weeping over Jerusalem) in obedience.

Christ did not have "multiple personality disorder."

He had one perfect united nature - fully God man.

Therefore, God hath highly exalted Him.
I did not read any of that thread but I am sick of stupid questions like is found in the title of the op.
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  #12  
Old 06-28-2012, 11:31 PM
Alive in Christ Alive in Christ is offline
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Of course Christ had 2 natures.

Christ was 100% God, while at the same time He was 100% man.

Up untill now I believe that cultic groups like the JW's, Mary Baker Eddy, etc etc etc have been the only ones who who denied, or even questioned this truth.

I am surprised that this is coming up here on this board.
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Last edited by Alive in Christ; 06-28-2012 at 11:48 PM.
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  #13  
Old 06-29-2012, 01:21 PM
Yeshua1 Yeshua1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agedman View Post
According to some on a recently closed thread, Christ had two natures.

I do not hold this view.

Christ was "God in the flesh" and that in that statement He had no dual competing natures as believers must contend, but a single nature as the Scriptures state - fully God and fully human.

The Nicene creed and LBC (1689) both reflecting this phenomena. The Holy God Nature of the Word (being coexistent and equal with God) and the nature of human without sin (as the First Adam was created - formed without sin) were united and became the single nature of The Lord Jesus Christ. The two natures did not "coexistent" but became completely united and inseparable.

There is really no "likeness" to illustrate this phenomena. For if one considers any alloy or compound, the atomic particles can be separated out. Even "basic" atomic structure can be split. No human reasoned example can be found to give other than by seeing Christ and God in action and relationship to each other and toward creation. Even Christ said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." And in another place, "I and the Father are one." Isaiah said, "...as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." Being completely human and completely God is nearly incomprehensible, and at best only in minor part grasp by human rationalization efforts.

It is important to emphasize that the "human nature" that currently rules over the unregenerate is NOT the pure nature in which Adam was created, but one that is sin filled and perverted.

The human nature that was united to that of the Nature of God (The Word) was the pre-fall Eden pure holy nature of the first Adam who could look God "in the eye - face to face" and fellowship together each evening. It knew no sin, nor was prone to sin. Yet, just as that first Adam, able to be tested and tempted in all points.

As the LBC 1689 states:
"...according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man... The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son..."
The statement does not hold that the "two natures" remained independent.

The statement states that they were "united" that they became "inseparably joined."

That is they became "one."

Because of this "oneness," the character and nature of the Father can be seen displayed in different characteristics than that of the Son and to which the Son actively submitted.

The Son, hungered, thirsted, got tired, was needy, in all points temped as humankind, and have a will that desires and hopes.

The Father cannot hunger, thirst, get tired, is not needy, cannot be tempted, and the will and/or desires of the Father are demands and commands.

The Father's will is/was considered a command by the Son to obey.

The desire and will of Christ showed longing and hope, but not necessarily fulfilled (think of weeping over Jerusalem) in obedience.

Christ did not have "multiple personality disorder."

He had one perfect united nature - fully God man.

Therefore, God hath highly exalted Him.
the Apostle paul called and saw jesus as being LORD , but also the MAN Christ jesus...

he seemed to have gotten better revelation than you have!
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  #14  
Old 07-07-2012, 10:59 AM
agedman agedman is offline
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My apologies on not getting back to this thread. My absence from the BB for the better part of a couple weeks was not a desire to avoid the discussion.

I want to state again, that I am in complete agreement with the Chalcedonian Creed, the Nicene Creed, the LBC of 1689, and even the Westminster confession in this particular area.

Each have shown that the final manifested nature of Christ was singular.

That the Christ suffered no personality disorders, nor was He divided. Look at the Westminster confession statement:

The Son of God, the second person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon Him man's nature,(1) with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin;(2) being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance.(3) So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion.(4) Which person is very God, and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.(5)
(1) Jn 1:1,14; 1Jn 5:20; Php 2:6; Gal 4:4
(2) Heb 2:14,16,17; Heb 4:15
(3) Lk 1:27,31,35; Gal 4:4
(4) Lk 1:35; Col 2:9; Ro 9:5; 1Pe 3:18; 1Ti 3:16
(5) Ro 1:3,4; 1Ti 2:5

The key words are inseparably joined together in one person.

The Calcedonian Creed also supports this unification of inseparability.

It is heretical teaching to demand that Christ be considered as having a completed nature of human and a completed nature of God that were separate but equal as if He had two minds, two hearts, strengths... He is One and the union is inseparable.

Often when one reads they only attend to the first statements and not the completed form.

For those who would like to contend that Christ had two natures that manifested themselves as a split personality disorder might, then perhaps you might show in Scriptures just when that took place.

Start by showing the Scriptures that validate Christ having a human mind and the mind of God, a human soul and the soul of God, human spirit and the Spirit of God.

Surely, if these are separate but equal, the Scriptures will be able to be brought to show proof.

However, if the union of the nature of God and the nature of human were completely "inseparable in one person" then Christ did not have split personality disorder.
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  #15  
Old 07-07-2012, 02:04 PM
OldRegular OldRegular is offline
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Originally Posted by agedman View Post
Start by showing the Scriptures that validate Christ having a human mind and the mind of God, a human soul and the soul of God, human spirit and the Spirit of God.
You might start by showing from Scripture that God has a soul. Scripture speaks of God as three different persons; Father, Son or Word, and Spirit. From this we get the doctrine of the Trinity. I don't recall anything about God having a soul. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps you can produce such Scripture?
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  #16  
Old 07-07-2012, 02:27 PM
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I am reposting certain parts an earlier comment[Post#4] because I believe that what agedman says is false. It is a misrepresentation of both the Council of Chalcedon, the London Baptist Confession of Faith, and the doctrine of the Christian Faith since Chalcedon. Furthermore, I believe it is a complete misunderstanding of Scripture and is nothing other than heresy!

From Post #4:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post

You are ignoring the Council of Chalcedon which dealt specifically with this issue.

From: http://www.reformed.org/documents/in...chalcedon.html
The Definition of the Council of Chalcedon (451 A.D)
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
I have bolded some of the above quote for agedman's benefit and present them below.

1. at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood,
2. truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body;
3. one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures,
4. the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union,
5. without confusion, without change, without division, without separation;

Note in particular that Jesus Christ was truly man having a reasonable soul and body. Yet you want to make the divine nature of Jesus Christ the same as the Spiritual nature of humans. Unbelievable to put it mildly.

Also note that the distinction of natures is in no way annulled by the union. Jesus Christ, one person with two natures, one human and one divine! [See discussion of point #5 below in discussion of the London Baptist Confession.]


From:http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc08.html

I have emphasized certain parts for the benefit of agedman.
Chapter 8: Of Christ the Mediator 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

From:http://www.grace.org.uk/faith/bc1689/1689bc08.html

I have emphasized certain parts for the benefit of agedman.

1. It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them both, to be the mediator between God and man; the prophet, priest, and king; head and saviour of the church, the heir of all things, and judge of the world; unto whom he did from all eternity give a people to be his seed and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.

2. The Son of God, the second person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father's glory, of one substance and equal with him who made the world, who upholdeth and governeth all things he hath made, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her: and the power of the Most High overshadowing her; and so was made of a woman of the tribe of Judah, of the seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion; which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.

3. The Lord Jesus, in his human nature thus united to the divine, in the person of the Son, was sanctified and anointed with the Holy Spirit above measure, having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, to the end that being holy, harmless, undefiled, and full of grace and truth, he might be throughly furnished to execute the office of mediator and surety; which office he took not upon himself, but was thereunto called by his Father; who also put all power and judgement in his hand, and gave him commandment to execute the same.
1. so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion;
2. in his human nature thus united to the divine,

Look at item 1 above. It states two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were joined together in one person. It further states there was no conversion, composition, or confusion. What does that mean?

What does conversion mean? Conversion means: change in character, form or function. That means there was no change, no change in either nature!

What does composition mean? Composition means: the act of combining parts or elements to form a whole. This means, agedman, that the human and divine natures were not combined into a whole. They remained divine nature and human nature.

What does confusion mean? Confusion means: disorder, chaos. There was no disorder or chaos in Jesus Christ but you, agedman, are trying to create both.
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2012, 02:45 PM
agedman agedman is offline
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You might start by showing from Scripture that God has a soul. Scripture speaks of God as three different persons; Father, Son or Word, and Spirit. From this we get the doctrine of the Trinity. I don't recall anything about God having a soul. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps you can produce such Scripture?
From the great sermon delivered to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus Christ was whom David spoke of when saying:

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Taken from:

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

This speaks specifically of the Lord Jesus Christ and it shows that for certain that Christ did and does have a soul.



So, now that I have attended to your request, perhaps you can explain the following dilemma:

If Christ was "double minded" by not having an inseparable union of the two natures which mind the believer is to have when the Scriptures state, "Let this mind be in you..."
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  #18  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:06 PM
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jbh28 jbh28 is offline
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The Bible says that Jesus was God(nature number 1) and Jesus was man (nature number 2).

Jesus was completely God and completely man. He was not half man and half God(which would be having one nature)

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death even death on a cross!
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2012, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agedman View Post
From the great sermon delivered to demonstrate that the Lord Jesus Christ was whom David spoke of when saying:

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Taken from:

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

This speaks specifically of the Lord Jesus Christ and it shows that for certain that Christ did and does have a soul.
The request, agedman, was as follows:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldRegular
You might start by showing from Scripture that God has a soul.
Those Scripture say nothing, nada, not one word, about God having a soul. Those Scripture are talking about the human nature of the Incarnate God, just as stated in Chalcadon, to wit:
Quote:
truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body
************************************************** *********************************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by agedman View Post
So, now that I have attended to your request, perhaps you can explain the following dilemma:

If Christ was "double minded" by not having an inseparable union of the two natures which mind the believer is to have when the Scriptures state, "Let this mind be in you..."
It should be obvious that mortal man cannot have the mind of God. But perhaps it will become clear what God through the Apostle Paul was telling us if we look a little further:

Philippians 2:5-11
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


The above passage simply summarizes for us the Incarnation and the crucifixion. Note it does not say God became man, it says He was made in the likeness of man. Who died on the cross? I know some on this Forum incorrectly say God died but that is nonsense. God cannot die! The human nature of Jesus Christ died. It was that human nature who said: Now is my soul troubled;[John 12:27]
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Old 07-07-2012, 03:46 PM
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Some Scripture for your consideration agedman:

John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

Now tell me. Was that human nature born of the virgin Mary one with God the Father? This verse alone shows that in Jesus Christ there were two natures, Divine and human!

John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Here Jesus Christ calls Himself I AM the words that God used to identify Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14: And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Are you telling me that Jesus Christ is telling us that seed of David which was born of the virgin Mary existed before Abraham the progenitor of David?
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