“Exclusive Source”

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    When our desires guide us to think on righteousness and holiness, from who is it to be sought? In the one and only place it exists—the Lord Jesus Christ! Yes, and from where is it to be sought? In His saints, because it is where He is via His Holy Spirit. This is to understand that there abides no righteousness or holiness directly within the believer, but only vicariously so. Which exercises faith the most—to believe that Christ’s righteousness alone suffices or that sufficiency is an admixture of man’s and Christ’s righteousness?

    Holiness and righteousness abide in a single degree and they do not admit in variations or measures. Thus, I believe the precious words, “Be ye holy; for I am holy” contain more of a proclamation element declaring one so (i.e. “let there be light”), than that of a command because no creature can be holy according to His requirement, and therefore fellowship (“partakers”—2 Pet 1:4) must be by imputation and never impartation, and only pride will tend you toward the latter which is similar to Satan’s pride.

    The believer is not righteous and holy but he is called righteous and holy because they indirectly abide within him—via a Second Party. Keeping one’s self in remembrance that all is vicarious will avoid much disappointment which comes from expecting godliness from that which “is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Rom 8:7—old man). This will result in a much needed and longed-for “rest”; for the unsaved need deliverance from sin, and the saved needs deliverance from sin’s weight (Heb 12:1). What we do not “cast” on Him (1 Pet 5:7) we unnecessarily carry, which “heavy ladens” us (Matt 11:28).

    -NC

    “Exclusive Source”

    Salvation is a deliverance wrought by the divine work on the Cross, so as to bring us out of one position into another. It is true we are morally changed, but we want more than that—though whoever has got that will surly have all the rest. But supposing I have the new life, with its desires after holiness, what is the effect? It gives me the consciousness of all the sin that is in me. I want to be righteous, but then I see that I am not righteous; and I bow under the power of indwelling sin and of the knowledge of such holiness which I have learnt to desire, only to find out that I have not got it.

    I say what is the good of my knowing holiness in this way, if I have not got it? It is no comfort to me. Here we have been speaking of God’s righteousness; but when I look, I find I have no righteousness. Where can I find a resting-place for my spirit in such a state as this? It is impossible; and the very effect of having this new life, with all its holy affections and desires after the Lord Jesus, brings me to the discovery of the lack of what this new life cannot itself impart. I have got the hungers of this new life—all its holy and righteous desires; but the thing yearned for I have not got.

    It is the desire of my new life, Oh that I could be righteous; but then I am not righteous. In that way the Father meets us with a positive salvation. He meets us and quickens us into the desire and want of holiness, giving us a new life and nature capable of enjoying it when we get it. But that is not all. When I have got that life, have I got the thing I want? No. I strive, and think, oh, if I could get more of this holiness, but still I have got it. I may hate the sin, but the sin is there that I hate.

    I may long to be with my Father, to be forever in the light of His countenance, but then I see that I have got sin, and know that the light of His countenance cannot shine upon my sin; I want a righteousness fit for His presence, and I have not got it. It is thus God meets us at the Cross. He not only gives the life and nature that we want, but He gives us the thing that we want. And not only so, but in Christ He gives us both the perfect object and life.

    We have borne the image of the first Adam in all the consequences of his sin and ruin, and we shall bear the image of the Last Adam. But the Father lays down first this great truth for our hearts, “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.” It is what we are now! There I find what my heart as quickened by God wants; and I learn what blessedness is in Christ, by whom the Father has revealed it to us. He has given us a righteousness in the Lord Jesus, who is the blessed accepted Man in the presence of the Father.

    Now, as regards my soul and eternal life, the Father has come and brought us into this position, making the Lord Jesus to be my righteousness and life. He has brought me in, in faith and in truth of my new life, into this wondrous position in Christ. The realization of it is another thing, and may be hindered through failure or infirmity. You begin to search, perhaps in yourself, and find such and such a thought contrary to Christ. But I say that is the old man. If you take yourself by yourself, there is not righteousness before God, and therefore you cannot stand an instant in the Father’s sight. I must look at the Lord Jesus to see what I am, and I say, “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.” And this is what I am in the presence of my Father. There is no veil: we are to walk in the light, as God is in the light.

    –J N Darby
     
  2. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree with this NetChaplain.

    Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

    Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

    Rom 10:3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

    Phl 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,​
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    I don't agree with Darby in his understanding of this entirely. We do have something within us created "in righteousness and TRUE holiness" called the "new man" or the "inward man" which is our "spirit" regenerated by the Spirit of God (Jn. 3:6). We are holy in this aspect of our nature and so holy that God Himself dwells there in perfect consistency with that nature. Hence, we have more than imputed righteousness by position , we have imparted righteousness in spirit that is sinless.

    However, neither our body or soul has been born again. Furthemore, what we have in the inward man we see completely missing in our soul and body and that is what yearns to be more righteous. We experience that righteousness as the Holy Spirit empowers the inward man's will to do good thus "good works" are the produced through us manifested in our life, thus redeeming that time characterized by those works. Right now, the only way to EXPERIENCE our salvation is through walking or being filled or yeilding, or coming under the conscious controll of the Indwelling Spirit of God whereby the works of the flesh are mortified - put to death.

    However, in regard to our prayer life, we must come to God on the basis of our POSITION in Christ which is wholly without sin and acceptable before God and obtained soley by imputation. We must think from our position in Christ and live by the power of the Spirit in connection with our inward new man.

    What few understand is that we are "in Christ" several distinctly different ways.

    1. By election - chosen in him before the foundation of the world.
    2. By federal representation - Rom. 5:12-19
    3. By creation - "created in Christ Jesus" - Eph. 2:10
    4. By legal imputation - Rom. 3:24-26; 4:23-25; 5:1-2
    5. By metaphorical representation - "Ye are the body of Christ and members"
    6. By figure/baptism - "baptized into Christ"
    7. By experience - Col. 2:6 "walk ye in him"

    Darby laid the foundation of the Keswick movement (if I am not mistaken) which presents a skewed view of spirituality.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jul 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2013
  4. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    Hi G20 - Thanks for the applicable reply, esp. the last passage!

    I do not believe our sin nature (in the believer) is an issue with God anymore because He has completely dealt with it through the Covenant with His Son.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Could you further elaborate on what you are saying here about our sin nature? I think you are saying that our sin nature presents no obstacle to our eternal salvation although it does present an obstacle to our daily life for Christ. Is that correct?
     
  6. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    Hi B - I like your most of your post and wanted to let you know that I believe the main concept of the material is that our godliness, even in the new nature (new man), is not directly from us but is vicarious. In this life we need not to think we can lay direct claim to godliness as of ourselves or as starting from ourselves.

    True, it is in the new nature where godliness abides, and being mindful that it is from the Father and created after His Son's image (Col 3:10) always gives Him the preeminence. Unless I'm mistaken, the author means there's no righteousness in ourselves, as after the old man, which differentiation is needed to avoid thinking that it can be reformed, which as you know it cannot (Rom 8:7).
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    You quote Darby quite often. Are you part of the Plymouth Brethren? Also, isn't the common understanding of the term "vicarious" that of substitution? How can you regard the righteous of our inward new man as "vicarious" righteousness? I grant it is "imparted" righteousness but how is it "vicarious"?
     
  8. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    No longer an issue in that He no longer regards us after the old man (sin source).

    I agree concerning sin and its source (old man), that it cannot be a hindrance to the retaining of our salvation (Rom 11:29), but can effect our growth in it, which I suspect that you're saying the same thing here.
     
  9. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    Your inquiry is accurate, yes I am part of the PB fellowship, but now indirectly, mostly by email and phone. It was through a Brother (Miles J Stanford) who wrote much for the PB's (about 20 yrs now) that I learned of dispensational teachings and I now continue them with them, as I do with multiple Christian Forums and various other denominational churches.

    I agree that vicarious can be defined in a substitutional sense, so its how one comprehends applying it. It's a highly significant issue how it's conceived because His Cross-work was more in the area of delegation, which is also a definition of vicarious in the dictionary.

    The work of the Cross was not in our place (substitution) because man was never called to "endure" it towards "condemning sin" (Rom 8:3), thus atoning for sin. Man was called to die, not for sin, but because of it; and applied in this way He was our substitute so we would avoid eternal death.

    I believe a good instruction concerning this issue is to understand that Christ did not obey the Law for us, but rather His obedience was for displaying openly His qualification for a perfect sacrificial atonement, which was for us.

    Thus is was in His atonement and not His obedience (which many mistakenly think His obedience was accounted to us) that redemption was provided. If His Law-obedience was in our stead, then He shouldn't have had to die, because death was only required for disobedience (Gen 2:17; Eze 18:4, 20), thereby making His obedience a totally separate and isolated issue concerning what is imputed to man, of which we are only recipients.

    To me, all will be vicarious because of our old man, which will no longer be the case in the eternal state. For now, the Holy Spirit and not us opposes the old man (Gal 5:17) and untill this will no longer be required (eternal state), it cannot be otherwise. The only righteousness the believer has (and even exists anywhere) is in Christ, because there is no other source, nor an admixture thereof.

    Paul said he wanted to, "be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith" (Phil 3:9--which Gup20 posted).

    I like Gill's comment here: "his own legal righteousness he did not desire to "have," and to be found in; not but that he desired to live soberly and righteously, to have, and do works of righteousness, but not depend on them; he would not have, and account this his moral righteousness, as a justifying one; he knew it was imperfect, filthy, and unprofitable, and that by it he could not be justified and saved, therefore he desired to have another (Christ's).
     
  10. Gup20

    Gup20
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    1
    I believe the terms "old man" and "sin nature" are synonymous with the term "knowledge of sinfulness."

    Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

    Hbr 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
    15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    Rom 8:15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

    1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

    Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
    20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.​

    I have a slightly different view of Sin Nature. I believe that the term "original sin" is a misnomer, and should instead be called "original death." Romans 5:12 says that death was passed, not that sin was passed. God curses the earth with death, not with sin. It is our fear of death BECAUSE of our knowledge of sin that leads to us being enslaved to sin. God rightly named the fruit in the garden "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil." Unlike God, who has full knowledge, our knowledge is experiential. For us to know evil, we had to commit sin. So the "sin nature" is really just the knowledge of sin which leads to fear of punishment which leads to slavery to sin. Sin nature is guilt - ironically something in no short supply from many of our churches. This is why works based Christianity is bondage.

    Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:​

    I think when NetChaplain talks about vicarious righteousness, he is saying that the righteousness that we have is not our own. It is Christs which we are able to use at judgement. It's like if a buddy had a back stage pass, and flashed his badge and when you tried to enter behind him without a badge, your friend says "he's with me." You don't have a backstage pass, but you know someone who does who's willing to speak on your behalf, and so you get in on his access. You have vicarious access. (as opposed to your friend getting in without you and then telling you about it and you experiencing back stage vicariously though his story of it)
     
  11. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    21
    Hi Gup - That's and interesting concept. I see it that the old man, which is the sin nature is death, because death came when sin occurred.

    The nature of an individual determines their essence or make-up, for how the nature is--so goes the soul. This is why the addition of the new nature, after which is what God regards the believer, even in the presence of the ongoing sin nature.

    It's referred to as the original nature because all are born with it, it is the first or original nature of all proceeding Adam and Eve. Thus, sin and death were simultaneously initiated and continue together; in the unbeliever it rules and condemns, but in the believer its condemnation is removed and its rule restrained (Rom 6:12, 14; Gal 5:17).
     

Share This Page

Loading...