“Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth

In my argument from the OP I say God is NOT “pulling our legs” and that we are “really” responsible to seek Him and that God’s words in the matter are as He is (Truth). And you argue that my words about this (God being Truth in His commands for all His creatures to seek Him) is ironic, go figure.



B TW, do you realize it is difficult to draw your scattered words and to separate who is speaking out of the center of quotes? That is a question concerning “reality and truth” in presenting your arguments, it inquires of “your” motives in doing so and asks for a “real” response that you might change your ways.

 

You totally miss/side step the argument that I've made that God commands all His creatures to respond to His influences and seek Him, and "WHY" (his words and judgment made concern the necessity of "real" creaturely volition) . You are simply repeating Determinist dogma of which you said earlier you have no part of. You say God chose to predestine out one side of your mouth and does not violate creaturely volition out of the other side. You attempt to draw the argument toward Divine foreknowledge. That is another whole tread my friend and is not concerning the argument at hand. When you do that you are creating circular arguments and a smokesreen which is a fallacy because it avoids the premise at hand.

I don't have time to pin the argument down for you if you can not follow it in order to try to get you involved in some logical reasoning. I've wasted enough time on Iconoclast and his circular arguments for now.

 

You offer one proof text to support your view of determinism that no one can seek God against 25+ verses I presented of God’s commands for all men to seek Him, as if His commandments are not truly given, negated and God is just “pulling His creatures legs” about their ability/volition to seek and know Him (Truth). You reply is to then repost the verses and attempt to suggest Paul agrees with your ignorant, neglectful interpretation… (that is your argument to refute the truth of all the other passages which command men to seek Him that I presented and all the reasoning I gave that all men must have volition and the necessity for God’s words to be true when He commands all men to seek Him.)

Well….I disagree with your interpretation of your proof text in light of the rest of scripture commanding men to seek God and on the basis of the necessity of truth in His words; further, I have given sufficient reason that your one proof text to support your argument was simply reproving men for NOT seeking Him, and that it does not contradicting the rest of scripture which commands all men to seek Him in truth.

I presented an abundance of scripture that commands men to seek the Lord and my argument that men must freely respond to God’s influences to receive His promise of grace to all on the condition of “real” faith which necessarily relies on “real” creaturely volition.

You present determinist dogma about election about how some men have not been chosen to be elect and thereby saved, you balk at me and others referring to your doctrine of “pre-selection“ while you attempt to redefine the meaning of predestination.

My argument stands that volition/ability of all man to choose to seek God must be true for God to be Truth in His ways of judgment.

 

I believe you keep what Calvinism/Determinism had made known to you…the way you express it is illogical and lacks reasoning skills…and you don’t like it when others put practical reasoning to your words.

So as per the Title: “Real” Ability of all God’s Creatures to Respond to the Influence of Him/Seek Truth you would declare all God’s creatures are commanded to seek God, yet along with this you declare God’s creatures are in a condition that they can not respond.

1) This says to me that you do not believe the response is “real” to at least some of God’s creatures because you say they are in a condition that they cannot respond.
2) You agree with the scriptures that all are to seek, but you keep to a manmade doctrine that man is Totally Deprived and unable to do so.
3) The ability of all God’s creatures to respond as commanded to those “fine verses” is not “real”, they cannot seek truth because the truth the truth is not readily available to man in his condition.


You can not express to me whether all God’s creatures have the “real” ability to respond to God’s command to seek truth. The answer must be either “true” or “false”; it cannot be both.

Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one can not do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.

BTW, I addressed the condition/nature of man and the necessity for truth in judgment. This went unanswered.

All men are commanded to repent of their ways and believe the Gospel, yet you declare what logically amounts to that Jesus gives some men the bad news that they can’t unless they are specially pre-selected by the Father to be drawn. According to your logic this command is not true/real for all men.

Again you provide one “proof text” to keep what God/or should we say your Determinist Doctrine has made known to you. BTW, I presented many scriptures (maybe you missed it)that contradict what is specially known to you about some men having no ability/hope in the matter and what we are told to preach:

(Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Word reveals the “truth” that faith is near; with the heart (faith) a person believes and whosoever believes in Him will not be disappointed (Rom 10:8-11). Those are the words we are to preach to the world!

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God truly gave Himself as a ransom for all (1Tim 2:3-6).

(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

He is a God of Truth and a Rewarder of those who seek Him. (Heb 11:6).

(Heb 11:6) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The invitation of grace through faith is real and extends to all (1Jn 2:2).

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

You keep saying men are commanded to do something they have no ability to do, sounds like you have been shown it is an empty promise to me, but I would not attribute that understanding to God.

BTW, I addressed the necessity of God being Truth, along with His character and ways of judgment:

…and all men (In His perfect work of creation) are commanded to seek and not without purpose, (a genuine offer of grace through faith for all His creatures) again, for all God ways are judgment (Deut 32:4) and that is not possible without the true condition of creaturely volition to respond to the truth of the promise, or not.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

This went unanswered.

Oh, trust me, I will keep the Truth and continue preaching to all men that they Truly have real hope in the promises of our Loving God.

You mean you will keep to the philosophy of Calvin…express it in that dogmatic light…and deny what your words actually mean?

Not interested in going down that rabbit trail that is nothing more than your typical smokescreen tactics to avoid and retract from the argument that has already been made here.

Yes, I was sincere in the arguments and heard loud and clear what you believe about all men (not) having the real ability to respond to the influence of God, no reason to be sorry about helping me, I am fine and don’t blame you for not being able to logically express a view that makes no sense if you are proving it as both true and false. :thumbs:

 

I believe God draws all men. I don’t think He draws them by force though so in that sense they do of their own choosing come to Him. In my experience I believed there was a God from the time I was a little boy but I had only went to church a couple of times and no one really spoke much about Him in my home. I was taught “now I layme down to sleep” and I liked saying that before I went to bed and I thought a lot about dying and never waking up but I believed God was a good, kind and loving God and would take care of me if I died, I believed He loved me. Growing up I felt His presence and that He protected me at times and I dreamed a few times that He talked to me yet it didn’t seem like a dream, I still don’t know. I felt that He was watching me and my conscience bothered me at times because of that. I prayed occasionally in times of trouble and a few times when something out of the ordinary happened afterwards I would wonder if that was Him. That’s all I knew, I didn’t know the Gospel, understand Trinity, or anything and only went to church with a co-worker one other time when I was 19; it was Pentecostal charismatic type and the preacher told everyone to close their eyes and asked a question about if anyone didn’t know whether for sure they would go to heaven, I raised my hand, we then open our eyes and he asked that anyone who raised their hand to come down. The other people must have peeked and started grabbing and pushing at me but I gave them the look that they better keep their hands off and made it clear I wasn’t into playing these games. I never got invited back.

I lived a very hard and sinful life and hung out with a rough crowd; we won’t go into details but let’s just say I’ve been really hurt, really bad and very unhappy. At 33 my life was about to fall apart in a big way, I was tough but this was more than I felt I could bare. I was drawn to God because I believed that He was Good, Love, and Wise and that somehow He had revealed this to me that this was the truth, which was the influence I needed. I had no one on this earth to turn to for help, and one night I cried out to God that only He could help me, my ways weren’t working, and I needed Him to guide me in my life and cried that I needed to know Him and be able to hear Him. I died to myself that night and surrendered my life to Him and I instantly felt a remarkable peace come unto me that I had never known. The next day I picked up the Bible not knowing anything about it…LOL...I preached about this in front of the congregation:

I didn’t know hardly anything about this Book and figured it was mostly going to be telling me I was going to Hell for all the things I had done…that is what the world had been telling me about those church-going Christians and their Bibles…

But in a new and growing faith, I opened up the Book...it went like this… (illustrate, sit down)

…and started thumbing through it and saw Genesis, yeah Eve and the apple, knew that much…Exodus… Judges/Oh great!!!… and… J…O…B…job…and thought, Oh, here we go…it’s all about being judged and being given a job to work my way out of this mess…ahh…rub stress off…, maybe I should look in the newer part, and so began looking at the names and thought, hmm, John sounds like a friendly name let’s see what he’s got to say about God. Oddly enough, the first sentence certainly seemed like it might be a good place to start:

John 1:1
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is God???

John 1:2-10
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

(You know, That comprehension part rather hits home.)

(6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
(7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
(8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

(The light out of the darkness, the Word, that all men might believe…John seems to be doing his job of being a witness here, I like this guy!)

(9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Well, that sounds like a promise to every man that they can know the true light. This Book is talking about truth, and that John was sent by God to bare witness that Jesus was the Light, and the Truth, and that Jesus is the Word …so maybe this is saying these Words aren’t so much John’s but are God’s???... all this is promising and if so, there is no better way of getting to know God and maybe get some guidance in my life through this letter He wrote us!

(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Wow!,.. just like me, I’ve heard of Him, but I don’t really know Him.

I read over that passage several times and sat and thought about it. I prayed about understanding those Words and to come out of the darkness and to see and know the Light… I then went back a ways and opened up to that red lettering in Mathew and picked up on 7:7 and it said…Ask…

Just then I recognized that I was seeing the truth about that Light in the Word, I had asked when I cried out to God to know Him; I was seeking when I opened up that Bible, I knocked on the door in prayer to hear His voice and He was speaking to me, right now, through these Words, His Words were telling me Who He is and this communication was a direct answer to my prayers. I sat in astonishment thinking about how these Words suddenly came before me as I turned the pages in a Book I knew nothing about and they addressed the very thing I asked for and I became overwhelmed with how precisely they did so. I understood that this strange feeling of His Hand on my shoulder was real, full of love and wisdom, and was guiding me. My hardened heart had been busted wide open and long held back tears swelled up in my eyes and began streaming down my face…and my faith grew. (Stand back up)



Anyway, I began reading the bible everyday, my relationship with Him grew and I started feeling guilty of not deserving His love and often asked for more faith in tears. It seemed that everything I asked to know about life and love that I would open up the Bible to just where I got those answers and my faith continued to grow and I really came to understand that He is LOVE. Too late to make a long story short, although it goes on and on and on….but God explained what He had done for me and I loved Him back with all my heart. I started going to church about a year after turning to Him.

I believe I was saved the moment I chose to surrender my life to Him.