“Temporal Salvation!?”

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    I like the example of the prodigal son because the story's main concept concerns the fact that he is his father's son, evinced by his overwhelming desire (Holy Spirit's work--Gal 5:17) to return to fellowship with his father. It does not question the concept of him being the father's son, which I believe portrays that once union is established it is inseparable, which is not the same for fellowship.

    Just as one born will always be a son to his father, even though there is no fellowship (close union) between them, they are still in a father-son union genealogically. One can be in union with God but not in fellowship, which fellowship is always eventually restored. There are examples of an appearance of a union, which union is eventually evinced to never have existed by the fact of the desire of a permanent absence of fellowship.

    Unlike the natural union of a family where, though they are genealogically united, they can remain out of fellowship, the union with God will ultimately be evinced by the restored fellowship, which without would leave only one alternative--there was no union to begin with!

    Either one is a Christian, which means being born again, or they have never been a Christian. All newborn Christians have much to learn concerning evidences of regeneration and applied Bible doctrine, whose lifestyle will progressively evince that God is working in them. Does not God work in every believer the unfailing desire for His will (Phil 2:13) and maintain it by His Spirit (Gal 5:17). If their lifestyle eventually evinces that God is not working His will in them, it confirms that regeneration has yet to occur.

    It's not sensible to conceive that God would give salvation to anyone, knowing it would be temporarily. If He knew there was a chance of it being temporal for any reason, why would He give it; and more so, why is it called "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9) if it is not permanent for the individual, for if it's not permanent in one's life it was something other than salvation, because there is only one type of salvation--eternal salvation. If one could get out of eternal salvation then it wasn’t eternal, which is conflicting. It's the "eternal" aspect of salvation that gives its greatest value and definition, without which would be worthless and of no use.

    The primary block in understanding that "the gift of God is eternal life" (Rom 6:23) isn't because one is not a believer but is due to being brought up in the Christian life under the error of thinking that the recipient of salvation owes God for it, which concept understandably results in the desire to somehow pay for it. But this leaves the believer in heresy, unaware of the meaning of "gift" (free). God’s grace endowed does not incur debt to Him, but to "one another" (Rom 13:8), which left unpaid is "as one that beateth the air."

    Such is the example of the story of a man who gave someone a luxurious display cabinet as a gift and while he was leaving he happened to notice the person was about to apply sandpaper to it (because he felt obligated to do something for the gift), upon which he told the man, "There's nothing that needs to be done to the cabinet, because it is finished." (John 19:30).

    Granted, Scripture contains words and phrases that reveal temporal situations which appear to be related to the possession of salvation but are rather those which are related to a false pursuit, but not the possession of salvation.

    Every aspect of salvation can be known and used in the service of God, but remove its eternal element, which is its pinnacle aspect, then suddenly you have a fallen disposable structure of “wood, hay, and stubble” (heretical doctrine) instead of “gold, silver, and precious stones” (the Gospel of Christ).

    -NC
     
  2. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    It's been a long time since I delved into this, but wasn't it up to the prodigal son
    to decide on his own whether or not he would return home?

    I.e. it was his very own free will decision to make.
    I.e. so much for the everlasting sonship and fathership.
    As for me, I have an 11'9" 50 mph speedship.

    Short answer please, not 15 pages. Gracias, senor.

    .
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    That passage is not about eternal security. Trying to pull that doctrine out of that passage does violence to the context. There is one single idea in parables. In this case the issue is over repentance not eternal security. This context is made clear in verses 10 and 32.
     
  4. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Hi E7 - A parable can portray various analogies which all lead to a primary view, which this one is obviously the fact of a son returning to his father. To me the most significant issue here is why he returned (because he's still his fathers son).

    I believe repentance (Luke 15:7, 10, 18, 19) is one the story's motives concerning a believer and the other is the Father's joy over him, all because of the relationship of father and son.

    If one were to allegorize the son in the story as a believer (which is the story's intent), it's the Holy Spirit who causes him to do the right things in his life, i.e.--return to his Father (Gal 5:17).
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    This context is abused by most all interpreters. They ignore who is being addressed by Christ - the pharisees who condemned Christ fellowshipping with sinners (Lk. 15:1-3).

    They ignore the repeated point of these parables (vv. 7,10, 25-32). A direct contrast between those who THINK they never need repentance versus those who actually repent.

    The elder son claimed he never at any time ever disobeyed his father. That is precisely the claim of those unto whom Jesus addressed ALL of these parables to. ONLY one sheep was lost and found. ONLY one peice of silver was lost and found. ONLY one son was lost and found.

    Jesus presented the Pharisees just as presented themselves, God's 99 sheep, 9 coins and elder son NEVER LOST and NEVER needing saving.

    However, the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son all were ULTIMATELY saved without loss - that is eternal security.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    The will always chooses, that is not the issue. The will is always FREE within the boundaries of its nature to choose - that is the issue.

    Notice Jesus says that when the younger son "came to himself" that is when he turned toward thoughts about his father and home. Repentance is turning from one direction to another direction. No one denies that people turn from one direction to another. No one denies that they freely choose to turn from one direction to another. However, the sinner does not "come to himself" apart from divine intervention and power working IN him. So you can look at repentance from purely the human angle as this parable does, or you can look at repentance from the Divine angel which Acts 11:18 does:

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Or you can look at the combination of both sides as Lamentations does:

    La 5:21 Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

    Here the CAUSE is the Lord turning us while the EFFECT is us being turned.
     
  7. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
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    Hi REVM - As mentioned in my reply to E7, parables contain numerous analogies which lead to one main point, which this one is the return of a son to his father. To me this exemplifies an unbroken union but a temporarily interrupted fellowship (i.e. Israel--Eze 36:27).

    In this case the reason for the restored fellowship is the believer's repentance (which I believe is caused by the internal work of the Spirit--Gal 5:17) as you've indicated in verse 10 and the effect is reestablished fellowship in verse 32, exemplifying the eternal aspect of the relationship, which is fellowship within a union.
     
  8. NetChaplain

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    Hi B - I believe John 6:44 is the desire for the unsaved to go to the Father's Son, which desire comes from the Father, not self. I also believe the good works of the believer is due, not to self (other than being used by Him in participation) but due to the Spirit (Gal 5:17) causing or leading him.

    I believe this exemplifies the difference between Covenantism of law and Grace. Covenantism of law is conditional which operates on an agreement between God and man, in that God blesses in accordance to man maintaining his part in the agreement.

    Grace is unconditional and does not operate in accordance with what man does, other than being the recipient of Grace--through faith; which faith is also from God and given to man (Gal 5:22).

    I prefer to conceive that God causes me to make the proper decisions, instead of thinking it's my free will that makes them. My understanding concerning free will is more in the form of yielding to guidance and enablement of the Spirit, not to self.

    Thus, to me the story is in reference to a misguided believer and the reason the prodigal "came to himself" would be because the Spirit caused it. I also believe that most (if not all) of those who are born again will encounter and eventually grow through the carnal-babe stage (1 Cor 3:1) because the Father will cause this in him (Phil 2:13).
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    Of course that is my understanding as well. However, none but those given to the Son obtain that desire and ALL who have that desire do come and are raised up to life.

    I think the difference is defined by who the parties are involved in any covenant. If the covenant is between God and man then it is conditional. However, if it is between the Persons of the Godhead as is the "new covenant" and "everlasting covenant" (Eph. 1:4-13; Rom. 8:28-30) then it is only conditioned upon those parties and their ability to keep their covenant.

    I prefer to believe that God gives a new heart which by nature is willing to obey God freely without coercion.

    Look at the people these parables are being addressed to - not believers.

    Look at the repeated point after each parable - rejoicing over those who repented in contrast to those who NEVER repented. The elder son professed that "at no time" he had ever done wrong against the father. That is the testimony of those Jesus is directing all three of these parables toward - not believers.
     
  10. NetChaplain

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    I need more clarification of your meaning here: "none but those given to the Son obtain that desire".

    I agree concerning the new heart, which I believe (I suspect you also do) is the "new man" or new nature. The believer isn't the "new man," which is a nature from Christ, but he is a new person.

    I also believe that the Spirit works and guides us through the "new man" because it is this new nature which--through the Spirit--makes us "partakers of the divine nature," for the "new man" is, "created in righteousness and true holiness' (Eph 4:24) and is, "renewed in knowledge after the image of Him (Jesus) that created him (it--new nature)" (Col 3:10).

    To me this means all the godly desires and actions of the believer originate from the Spirit, to the new nature then to us, making us participants of what the Spirit does concerning godliness, never originators of godliness.

    My scenario in these replies concerns situations relating only to the believer. As for coercion (no offense intended), God is welcome to as much as He wills to cause or force me too "know Him."
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    The "him" in John 6:44a is the same "him" in verse 44b that is raised up. The last phrase was introduced in verse 39 to prove that "of all" given "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING "but" it should be raised up." The neuter is used because "nothing" and "all" represents neuter Greek words which "it" modifies.
    "everyone" - v. 45 that is so instructed by the father "cometh to me" (v. 45b)
     
  12. NetChaplain

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    I believe that all who come to Christ for salvation are reborn and will never be lost, i. e. Judas did not come to Christ for salvation but was appointed Apostleship with Him and thus "fell" from his apostolic office, but not from grace--which he did not enter--"that he may go to his own place" (Acts 1:25).

    Everyone falls from a "said-faith," (Jam 2:18) if that's as far as they pursue Grace. One can fall from a false pursuit of Grace, but never from receiving it.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Well brother, I can agree with all you have said without moving from what I have noted about John 6:39,44-45.

    Notice that Judas is listed among those whom Christ knew from the beginning never truly believed in him (v. 64). That kind of faith must be "given" (v. 65).
     
  14. NetChaplain

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    Good use of confirmation-passages and thanks Brother!
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You are very welcome!
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    I think one of the major problems for those who oppose the truth of once really saved always saved is their failure to understand God's design of salvation is wholistic for the entire human nature and the multi-facet use of the term "saved."

    They must first understand that man is a three fold being (spirt, soul and body" and what is "saved" in past tense is not our body or soul but what is born of Spirt "is spirit."

    Our body was not born again. Our body still is the domain of death and is dying and shall see death if the Lord does not intervene by His coming. It is still the domain of the "law of sin" and death and called "this body of death."

    Our soul was not born again although the new birth more directly affects it then it does our body. The soul is the battle ground between the indwelling Spirit of God in our spirit/new man and our body where indwelling sin rules.

    I define "soul" to be the conscious self (mind, will, emotions) and "life" which is the visible expression of mind will and emotions. - eat of self-consciousness - this immaterial as far as substance and joined inseparably from our spirit in regard to substance but separable in regard to functions

    I define "spirit" to be the seat of other world consciousness. It is the seat of conscience, direct revelation = intuition and communion with the spirit world.

    The "born again" has to do with our "spirit" which removes and cleanses the defilement of sin from this seat of spiritual communion and makes it fit for the indwelling presence of the "Holy" Spirit (Eph. 2:2-3; Tit. 3:5b) bringing the child of God into direct, immediate and eternal spiritual union with God which is spiritual eternal life so that this person can never die spiritually.

    The soul is the battle ground for the "TIME" we live and what "TIME" is dedicated by the motive, thoughts, words and actions to glorify God versus being LOST when dedicated to yeilding to the flesh. The soul itself is never lost but the consequence of soul action - "life" = "time" is what is saved and lost. We can daily suffer "loss" of peace, joy, experiential blessings of salvation, growth and eternal rewards and positions in heaven.

    It is this present tense "soul/life" or TIME (Eph. 5:16) salvation that can be lost and saved by our works.
     

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