“The doctrine of baptisms” (Hebrews 6:1-2)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by evangelist-7, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. evangelist-7

    evangelist-7
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    Hebrews 6:1-2
    Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ,
    let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation
    of repentance from dead works and
    of faith toward God,
    of the doctrine of baptisms (plural),
    of laying on of hands,
    of resurrection of the dead, and
    of eternal judgment.


    This kind of throws a monkey-wrench into the theory of only “one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5)!
    There are several theories about what Paul was talking about, which can be researched.

    The following is my doctrine of baptisms …

    Baptism into the church (salvation) --- Baptizer: the Holy Spirit
    This does not refer to a phony salvation, which has always been quite prevalent,
    i.e. merely an intellectual belief, or conversion of one’s thinking.
    But this refers to being “born again (from above)” with the Holy Spirit entering the person.
    “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (the church)
    … and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13)

    The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer … John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11,
    1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.

    So, I classify this baptism as the one where the Holy Spirit comes “inside” people.

    Baptism in water (a symbolic demonstration of faith) --- Baptizer: man
    Full-immersion baptism in water is symbolic, being the outward expression of inward faith.
    Any other type of water baptism is unscriptural and just dreamed up by man.
    Paul said, “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17).
    We are justified by God’s gift of grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

    Baptism with the Holy Spirit (an anointing power for ministry) --- Baptizer: Jesus Christ
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:33).
    This does not refer to salvation.
    But this refers to the Holy Spirit coming UPON the believer … Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8,
    Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6.

    This baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after a person is born again (or at the same time).
    So, I classify this baptism as the one where the Holy Spirit comes “upon” people.

    Baptism with fire (extreme suffering for the gospel’s sake) --- Baptizer: Jesus Christ
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with fire (Matthew 3:11, Luke 3:16).
    Jesus asked His 12 disciples if they were able to be martyrs after Him:
    “Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
    (Matthew 20:22-23).

    Jesus told His 12 disciples that they would be martyrs after Him:
    “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with …” (Mark 10:38-39).

    All of the baptisms are glorious blessings, even the baptism with fire:
    “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake” (Matthew 5:10).

    .
     
    #1 evangelist-7, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
  2. The Biblicist

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    Not at all!

    There are three couplets here. The first deals with the fundementals of the doctrine of salvation (repentance....faith)

    The second deals with the fundementals of serive (baptisms, laying on of hands)

    The third deals with the fundementals of the second coming (resurrection, judgement).

    In regard to the couplet dealing with the fundementals of service there is the singular "doctrine" in relationship to the house of God the institution of service

    1. The baptism in the Spirit was the once historical public accreditation of the house of God - Acts 2:1-3

    2. The baptism in water once is the prequisitive for membership in the house of God - Acts 2:40

    3. The baptism in suffering is a metaphorical immersionn in suffering for identifying with the house of God and its doctrine - New Testament churches have been persecuted since the establishment of the church institution.

    In regard to the laying on of hands, that refers to the act of ordination and the perpetuating of the house of God through church ordained sent missionaries - Mt. 28:19-20.


    The baptism in the Spirit has been accomplished.

    The baptism in water is the only baptism of the Great Commission and thus the "one baptism" in Eph. 4:5 that is perpetuated through the N.T. House of God.

    The baptism in suffering is a metaphorical baptism administered by the foes of Christ.
     
  3. Moriah

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    I think you have the same beliefs as I do about baptisms, up until what you say here. I believe it does have to do with salvation, and, even IF there is, another baptism you are speaking of, Jesus is the one who does the baptizing.
    There is no evidence of that in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is given before a person is born again.
    Baptism by the Spirit and baptism by Jesus is the same thing. The Spirit is the Lord, see Colossians 2:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18.
    For Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be given, meaning people did not have the Holy Spirit living inside them to stay yet.
    When the Holy Spirit came upon people in the way of speaking in tongues, prophesying, and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, this is during the laying of the foundation, God testified to the gospel this way.
    The foundation is laid. The Bible says tongues would stop, and prophecies would stop. You know it has stopped because you know you cannot add to the word of God what is already written.
    Baptism with fire is about destroying evil people with fire, at the end of the world.
     
    #3 Moriah, Jun 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 14, 2012
  4. evangelist-7

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    Please see my comments in blue.
    .
     
  5. evangelist-7

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    Sorry, a section I forgot to include is shown in purple.

    Baptism with the Holy Spirit (an anointing power for ministry) --- Baptizer: Jesus Christ
    John the Baptist proclaimed that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:33).
    This does not refer to salvation.
    But this refers to the Holy Spirit coming UPON the believer …
    Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8,
    Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:5-6.

    This baptism with the Holy Spirit comes after a person is born again (or at the same time).
    So, I classify this baptism as the one where the Holy Spirit comes “upon” people.

    Note:
    Approximately 8 times in the OT, the Spirit came UPON God's prophets as an ANOINTING to prophecy, etc.
    I believe only twice did a prophet say the Spirit came INSIDE of him.
    Now I ask you, wasn't it a tad difficult for them to know if the Spirit was upon them or inside of them?
    IMO, only if God told them directly, would they know for sure. In those 2 cases, the prophet was mistaken.
    Muslims would love this ... a prophet mistaken! Muslims insist that all of God's prophets were sinless.

    .
     
    #5 evangelist-7, Jun 14, 2012
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  6. evangelist-7

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    Just something else you won't believe re: the 3rd baptism ... from another forum:

    I have to be active listening, obeying, and ready to stand on the Word.

    While heading to Church on a Friday I got a check in my spirit (Word of Wisdom) to not go.
    Did not make sense, and someone even asked me if I was suppose to go.
    Well, God wants us to go to Church, and I wanted to go, so I went anyway.

    I got home and a Police officer was waiting on me. It cost me a year in court, It cost me tons of time studying case law,
    it almost cost me a year in jail. Had I stayed home, like I knew to do, it would have been all good. My fault.
    God did at the last day deliver me a year later as the supreme court changed a ruling just days before trail.
    The state dropped all charges.

    The gifts of the Spirit are alive and well........

    Be extremely blessed.


    Oh, those terrible terrible experiences! When will they ever stop plaguing us!
    NO truth can be learned from experiences!
    Doesn't God know that only the word is worthwhile believing?

    P.S. No mention of how staying at home would have avoided da one-year nightmare.

    .
     
    #6 evangelist-7, Jun 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2012
  7. The Biblicist

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    I feel sorry for you. You have a religion of whims and feelings that has no paralell in the scriptures whatsoever except for such passages as (2 Thes. 2:9-12; Mt. 24:24-25).
     
  8. evangelist-7

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    Not nearly as sorry as I feel for you.

    You don't have the religion of Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the other apostles.
    They had a religion that was totally dependent on hearing God's Spirit, and on spiritual power.
    They had a religion that was based on a personal relationship with Almighty God.

    And you think the Scriptures replaced all of that?
    No, they are in addition to all of that.
    Because it simply has not been possible for God to give all of the Scriptures
    to every human being spiritually, i.e. through His Spirit.

    You have a dead religion ... with only black words on white paper, just like the Muslims.
    You actually write as if the Holy Spirit is NOT in your life at all.
    Father God sent Him to be inside of us, and to teach us "all things" (John 14:26).
    And these things that He teaches us ... they confirm what Scripture says, and they never disagree with IT
    ... except in special cases, such as: "Do not go to church today!"

    You've put your God in a box ... and you've told Him: "You can't do this! And You can't do that!
    It's not too late to change your doctrine and your ways.

    .
     
    #8 evangelist-7, Jun 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2012
  9. DHK

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    Please consider the title of your thread, and then what the Bible says about it:

    Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;

    not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms,...

    And this will we do, if God permit.

    AND THIS WILL WE DO!
    Paul was interested in feeding the Hebrews strong meet, but they were stuck on the milk of the Word. He had already taught them about baptism, the first step of obedience after a Christian becomes saved. He had already taught them about baptism in the Spirit. He had already taught them these things. This is baby food. They were still infants.

    Let us go on he said. Let us feast on the meat of God's Word and not stay on the milk of God's Word.

    This is where you are--stuck on milk. You are stuck at salvation and baptism and haven't progressed any further than that. You can go no further. Paul says "let us go on." You can't. You don't have the understanding. You don't even have a proper understanding of John 3:1-13. How can you go on, as Paul suggests??
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    So, you are claiming prophetic insight into what you think my religion is? Another proof that you are being led by a spirit of error.

    You see, I have a very personal relationship with God through faith in Christ and by means of the indwelling Spirit of God. The Lord has been my teacher, my guide, my friend and empowered me in preaching his word for nearly 40 years. He answers my prayers on a weekly basis. He has taken care of all our needs throughout my ministry when I had no one to rely on but Him.

    Not only are you prophesying falsely about me but you don't seem to understand the very essence of what it means to be "filled" with the Spirit of God. It means you die to yourself, humble yourself and come under the leadership of the Spirit which is evidenced by SUBMISSION to His Word.

    See, the definition of a lost man is "enmity with God and NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD" whereas the spiritual man is just the opposite.

    You have not learned one of the most basic lessons that God teaches. You cannot judge the internal state of a person especially by the presence or absence of the miraculous. Jesus said the greatest man ever born of woman was a man that never performed a single miracle, sign or wonder - John the Baptist. He was greater than Moses through whom God performed many miracles, signs and wonders. He was greater than Elijah and Elisha who performed many miracles, signs and wonders. Hence, both Moses (Heb. 4:2) and John the Baptist were believers in the same gospel (Acts 10:43) and yet the complete absence of miracles signs and wonders did not make John any less of a saved man than Moses.

    A wicked generation seeketh signs but the sign that Jesus places the most emphasis upon is the sign of Jonah - the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    That is a sign I have not yet witnessed in your discussions or testimony. Where is it?
     
    #10 The Biblicist, Jun 16, 2012
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  11. Moriah

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    Biblicist,
    You do what you accuse evangelist-7 of doing, and that is you think you have personal insight to his and other people’s relationship with Jesus.
     
  12. Moriah

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    I think you have the same beliefs as I do about baptisms, up until what you say here. I believe it does have to do with salvation, and, even IF there is, another baptism you are speaking of, Jesus is the one who does the baptizing.
    Were you not trying to make a distinction from Jesus doing the baptizing and then at other times the Holy Spirit doing the baptizing?


    There is no evidence of that in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is given before a person is born again.
    Well, since you say Jesus could be baptizing the person with the Holy Spirit being put INSIDE them, then how is it at the SAME time the Holy Spirit is coming upon them and giving them gifts?
    Therefore, with your explanation, the Holy Spirit is being put in someone while at the same time coming upon them. How is that happening at the same time by Jesus and by the Holy Spirit?

    I believe the Spirit is the Lord, and there is no distinction between Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I also do not believe there is any distinction between the Holy Spirit coming upon someone as they receive the Holy Spirit in the inside.

    I do believe the Holy Spirit came with power for the testifying of God during the laying of the foundation, and the foundation is laid, so God does not have to testify in the same way as He did when the gospel was preached for the first time. I do believe people who have never heard the true gospel can be healed of illnesses at that time, the Bible does not say all kinds of healings would stop.

    Speaking in tongues though, were for a sign to Jews. Why would tongues continue for a sign to the Jews to this day? The sign was given.

    Paul says speaking in tongues are for UNBELIEVERS. The nowadays tongue speakers do NOT speak in tongues for unbelievers; they speak in tongues for themselves and other believers in their church.

    Do you believe foreigners to a group of people can speak in a tongue, and be understood by the UNBELIEVERS in his native language? Because that is what the disciples did in the New Testament.


    Baptism by the Spirit and baptism by Jesus is the same thing. The Spirit is the Lord, see Colossians 2:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17-18. For Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be given, meaning people did not have the Holy Spirit living inside them to stay yet.

    When the Holy Spirit came upon people in the way of speaking in tongues, prophesying, and other gifts of the Holy Spirit, this is during the laying of the foundation, God testified to the gospel this way.
    The foundation is laid. The Bible says tongues would stop, and prophecies would stop.
    You know it has stopped because you know you cannot add to the word of God what is already written.
    You do not want to give up tongue speaking and prophecies, you are accustomed to it, fond of it, and attached to it.
     
  13. Moriah

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    When a person gets saved, when a person is given the Holy Spirit, when Jesus reveals himself to someone…they have a personal relationship with the Father and Jesus Christ.

    The scriptures are the written Word of God. The scriptures in the New Testament is the mystery revealed. The tongue speakers spoke mysteries, and since we have all scripture needed for salvation, and no more scriptures can be added, why then do we need tongue speaking to continue?

    There is no such thing as only black words on white paper. I have the Spirit of the Father and Jesus Christ in me. When I read the scriptures, the Spirit inside me gives life to my spirit, I feel the life inside me, and I rejoice as I read what the Word of God says.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Asking you and evangelist-7 for a personal testimony of salvation is not a crime nor an accusation. Perhaps you would set the example for us and give us your salvation testimony??? Saved people have one you know!

    However, the false gospel you profess does not offer a salvation testimony does it? No, it cannot because you are STILL IN THE PROCESSS of YOUR kind of gospel salvation are you not?
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Jun 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 17, 2012
  15. evangelist-7

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    I say it's the other way around.
    I say you don't understand "the elementary principles of Christ", i.e. "the foundation" of Christianity.
    I say you need to understand doctrines such as "baptisms".
    Just why do you think I'm here? ... To tell you about them.
    How can YOU go on, as Paul suggests ... without understanding them??

    Next ... please enlighten us as to what I don't understand about John 3:1-13.
    That should be good for a laugh or two ... or three.
    And please spare me the line about not understanding "born of water and the Spirit"
    for there are about 6 different interpretations of that. Thanks.

    .
     
  16. DHK

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    I am the one that can give a testimony of salvation and have.
    You are the one that cannot give a testimony of salvation or at least won't.
    So who is the one who doesn't understand the elementary principles of Christ? It is not I.
    How can you understand them if you have not the light to understand?
    I don't know if you have that light unless you give witness of that light through your testimony of salvation.
    If you knew what it meant you would be able to explain it. But ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

    .No there are not about 6 different interpretations of it.
    There are very few, and out of those few some are wrong. Most can tell if you know what it means by your explanation. What does it mean to be born again? Are you born again?
     
  17. evangelist-7

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    The highly-regarded NKJV Study Bible gives 6 interpretations, but will NOT hazzard a guess.
    But, you ... you know the ones that are too ridiculous to consider.
    Yes, there certainly are ridiculous ones here, that's for sure!

    How many times have I written here, in this most hallowed of all Christian forums,
    what born-again (from above) salvation is all about?

    I'm guessing Moriah would find great pleasure in counting all of the many times ... just to make you look foolish.
    This is just another great opportunity for her. Moriah, go for it, girl!

    Note: To discern spiritual Truth (i.e. about da baptisms and about my testimony),
    some people prefer hearing from man instead of hearing from the precious Holy Spirit!
    Sad, but true, folks!

    .
     
  18. DHK

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    The Holy Spirit speaks through His Word.
    Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the Word of God.
    The natural man does not understand the Word for he has not the Spirit of God.
    We, who have the Spirit of God, understand all things that pertain to spiritual things. But if you don't understand the new birth or cannot explain it you are simply showing your true colors.
     
  19. evangelist-7

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    Have patience, dear friend, Moriah will delight in explaining it to you ...
    ... what I have written about salvation, I mean.

    .
     
  20. evangelist-7

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    Re: baptism #3 in the OP ...

    I have yet to experience anywhere, any time, any place, etc.
    any person who has come forward and said something along these lines ...

    "I spent 10 hours studying ...
    the 7 verses about the Spirit coming INSIDE (re: born-again salvation), and
    the 7 verses about the Spirit coming UPON (re: baptism with the Holy Spirit)
    ... and I just cannot agree with you for da following reasons ..."


    WOW ... what a blessing that would be!

    But, NO ... what I get are negative posts about 10 minutes after the OP is posted.
    These are the types of people I am burdened with.
    (Sorry, forgive me, we're not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition.)

    .
     

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