1 Cor. 12-14

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Sep 3, 2012.

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  1. awaken

    awaken
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    Seems like everyone is against Baptist charismatic members and not just their beliefs. I know different Baptist churches hold different beliefs on certain things, but most southern baptist do not believe that the manifestation are gone... just on what they are.

    What do most of the baptist here believe about the Holy Spirits manifestations today?

    Please try not to belittle me for what I believe but yet defend what you believe. Not just opinions..scriptures please!

    I ask that this be done in love and a mutual agreement that in the end of this thread no hard feelings/offense taken. I believe that is what God would want!
     
  2. awaken

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    Before we get into chapter12-14 maybe we need to look first at. Acts 2:38-39.

    "Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptizedin the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who arae afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call[/B]."

    The miracle of Pentecost does not need repeating. Yet its pormise is mine. Down to this very age, the Holy Spirit's benefits are available to you and me.

    1 Cor. 1:7-8.." So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

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    I can only tell you what I, as a Baptist, believe about the scripture you posted.

    Here's a snippet from those three chapters that is the heart of what I believe about gifts.

    The scriptures you have posted about spirituals gifts are not exhaustive, but I think you know that. There's also Romans 12, Ephesians 4, 1 Peter 4 (that tells us HOW to use the gifts) and more in Corinthians than just what you posted. And even all those scripture passages are not exhaustive of ALL of the spiritual gifts available from the Holy Spirit.

    Now about the above passage. I've seen Christians interpret verse 31 of chapter 12 - "desiring the greater gifts" as literally meaning that preaching, speaking in tongues, prophecy, teaching, and performing apostolic miracles ARE the greater gifts and separate the "Holy Ghost" Christian from the lesser Christian.

    I've read this passage over and over and I see the exact opposite. I see Paul as saying that the Holy Spirit does appoint people to do these things, but there is something much greater - a greater concept to the "gift" than we realize. And that's love.

    Paul is saying that if you have these gifts of prophecy, tongues, and more and don't love the people that you are called to serve with these gifts, then the gifts that we think are so important are worth absolutely nothing.

    And sometimes we only tend to think of spiritual gifts as those that "impress" us such as the gifted preacher, teacher, tongue-speaker, or instrumentalist.

    I actually heard several people call these gifts the "empowered" gifts - the "BIG gifts" - and other non-biblical adjectives.

    The gift is up to the discernment of the Holy Spirit. He chooses the gift and anoints the believer with it. Therefore, the gift is more or less irrelevant to what the believe DOES with it and how much love the believer carries inside the gift to do three things that the Bible says that gifts are for: the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and the edifying of the body of Christ. Nothing more - nothing less.

    You asked what we believe about Holy Spirit manifestations.

    I believe that flawed human beings are easily deceived by them. What do I mean by that?

    If we do something, as directed by the LORD, and not one single solitary soul ever notices it, acknowledges it, brags on us, thank us for it, or exclaims how much we have impressed them by it - we should not believe that gift to be "lesser". Maybe someone has the gift of "helps" and is directed by the Holy Spirit to scrub the toilets of the church and dust and clean for no pay. No one sees that. And 99.99% of the time those gifts we call "lesser" go unnoticed. But less some narcissistic nitwit get invited to sing a "special" because they have a golden voice or get called on to pray because they can spit those "tongues" out like nobody's business or get asked to teach the adult class because everyone is convinced that they are the second coming - and everyone just claps and shouts and sings their praises to high heaven instead of singing God's praises and the entire congregation never knows that these people don't live out anything that they sing, pray, or teach.

    Paul, when he says seek the "greater gifts", means to seek those things where you love shows through the gift - as outlined by the next chapter.





     
  4. saturneptune

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    I agree that it does need repeating. As was pointed out in the other thread, tongues takes a speaker, an interpreter, and a message edifying to the church. You said you had experienced this. Can you share with us what the message from the Lord was? I have not experienced this in sixty years.
     
  5. awaken

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    I myself have never given a message in tongues or interpreted. But I was at a church that this happened. It was powerful..it was addressed to an individual (no names were given) it was a cry of God love toward that person in a situtation. That person came down broken, repented and delivered from his bondage.
     
  6. awaken

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    Yes! I agree...without love NOTHING will glorify God! That is the greatest, LOVE!

    But I see a difference in the fruit of the Spirit and the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, do you? The fruit is the nature of God we receive at spiritual birth..
     
  7. Scarlett O.

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    Just my opinion.

    The fruit of the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in that those characteristics that make up the fruit manifest themselves in our lives. Not all of them everyday and sometimes He gives us opportunities for that fruit to ripen and grow.

    Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a separate "baptism of the Holy Spirit" event merely because one is not aware of the calling or gift the moment of their salvation.

    I was saved a age 8. My receiving of the Holy Spirit in my life was full and complete at that time.

    Did I know at age 8 that God was appointing me and anointing me to become a teacher of the Bible to students? No. Was that revelation to me as a young woman in my 20's a separate Holy Spirit "baptism"? No.

    If a person who has been saved for 15 years suddenly is gifted by the Holy Spirit with teaching, preaching, or tongues does that mean that the Holy Spirit is giving him or her a second baptism? No.
     
  8. Bronconagurski

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    Unless the person speaking tongues was speaking a known tongue, but unknown to him, then it wasn't real. That is what tongues are: the ability to apeak a known language that you previously could not speak. The interpreter merely needs to be another person that speaks that known language. God doesn't speak any new word. Sorry, but all the tongues I have ever seen are bogus.
     
  9. Scarlett O.

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    Forgot to clarify .... yes. Tongues were known languages in the Bible.
     
  10. awaken

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    With so many languages out there...how do you know it is not a language?

    The way you explained the interpreter...how is that supernatural? An unbeliever could do that without salvation, right?
     
  11. awaken

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    The nine fruit of the Spirit, which are a result of the HOly Spirit indwelling Presence.
    The nine gifts(manifestations) of the Spirit, which I see are a result of the Holy Spirit's infilling power.
     
  12. awaken

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    I too was saved at an early age but it was not until I reached my 40's that I felt like He was preparing me for more.

    I struggled with the seperate experience deal, still do not know what happened later in my 40's..but there was a change! But it was not until then that I embraced the truth of the gifts of the Spirit.
     
  13. awaken

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    In Chapter 12 where he introduces the nine manifestation, Paul also tells us that he does not want us to be ignorant.

    In verses 4-6 speaks of gifts, administrations, and operations...Can anyone explain the difference in these?
     
  14. Tom Butler

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    Have any of you ever seen someone raised from the dead?

    Do any of you know anybody that ever did it?

    Me neither.
     
  15. awaken

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    Do you recall why the disciples could not cast the demons out of child in Matt. 17?
     
  16. John of Japan

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    Tongues in the NT are clearly known languages.

    (1) In Acts 2, we are actually told so. The word Greek word glossa (language, or the literal tongue in your mouth as in Acts 2:3) is used, but if one doubts if that be literal languages, the languages are listed after a different Greek word is used, dialektos, which other than in Acts 2 (Acts 2:6 & 28) occurs 5 more times in Acts: Aramaic (1:19), and three times for Hebrew (21:40, 22:2 and 26:14. So the word glossa in Acts 2 must mean literal languages. In fact, in Acts 2:9-11 those languages are named, with glossa the word for "tongue" in v. 11.

    (2) In 1 Cor. 12-14, there is nothing to indicate unknown (not in the Greek, but added in the English). In the whole three chapters the impression is the opposite, that normal languages are being referred to. If they were tongues as in Acts 2, then interpretation would not be needed. In fact, if they were miraculous in any way, what would be the need of interpreters? I've preached in an international church here in Japan, with interpreters into Thai, Chinese and Japanese, and that fit exactly what is being said in 1 Cor. 12-14.

    (3) Historically, the original "revival" at Azusa St. in 1906 viewed their tongues as a means to reach the world for Christ, therefore modern tongues speakers do not understand tongues the way they did. Why? The original Pentecostal missionaries went to the fields of the world and discovered that they had no miraculous gift of languages, that they had to go to language schools instead. The whole story is told by a Pentecostal scholar in Azusa Street and Beyond: Pentecostal Missions and Church Growth in the 20th Century, by L. Grant McClung, Jr. (pp. 13-14). So it is only due to failure in this area that modern Pentecostal/Charismatic churches have the doctrine of the unkenown tongue.

    (4) The Biblical gift of the Holy Spirit's baptism/fullness was always to do God's work and win souls, not to have some gift the make you happy and feel so blessed. See this clearly in Acts 4:31--"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." The result of their prayers and the fullness of the Holy Spirit is clearly the bold proclamation of the Word of God, not tongues or healing.

    I could give more, but hopefully this will start you thinking. I also strongly object to the idea of a healer (no where in the Bible; the healing of Christ was incidental to the proclamation of the Gospel), and the terrible Charismatic doctrine of the manifest sons of God.
     
  17. awaken

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    I do not recall ever saying that tongue was not a language. A language that the speaker does not know!

    These 9 gifts (and I know there are more, but the thread is on 1 Cor.) are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, right? The interpreters that you are speaking of could be an unbeliever, right? How then can this be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit?
     
  18. 12strings

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    1 Corinthians 14:6 - Now, brothers,1 if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

    1 Corinthians 14:18 - I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

    1 Corinthians 14:23 - If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

    1 Corinthians 14:39 - So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.


    Based on these and other verses. I think there are two extremes to avoid:

    a. Saying ALL tongues are definitely ceased for all times and all places...that God cannot and will not use miraculous signs including language to reveal himself in the times that he chooses.

    b. Saying that the tongues are a sign of spiritual maturity that every true or mature believer must have to show that he is truly following God. I think Paul is pointing out that NT tongues, while spectacular, were not the highest gift, or the most helpful.

    That said...

    1. It seems that the way tongues are practiced in most churches today seems a different animal than the way they were used in the NT.
    2. It is interesting that Tongues were not widespread from about 100AD untill about 100 years ago.
    3. It is interesting that the vast majority of Biblical Scholars over the last 2000 years put very little emphasis in their writings on tongues...either denying their validity completely (an error, I think), or severely limiting their helpful application.
    4. It is interesting that while I have known Godly Christians who spoke in tongues, I have never known a Christian upon whom the gift of tongues came unbidden, without their church teaching them to do it, or being in a group that encouraged it.
    5. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit, when it came, would magnify and glorify HIM, Christ. To the degree that supposed manifestations of the Holy Spirit draw attention only to the Spirit, or to the great giftedness of the individual person, we must suspect that it may not be what it is claimed to be.
     
  19. awaken

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    Interesting that Paul wrote and spoke about the subject of tongues, and he practiced what he preached.
     
  20. awaken

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    Again I find it interesting tha the first of this is Paul expressing that he did not want us to be ignorant on this subject..

    Some people I talk to know NOTHING about the gifts of the Holy Spirit...not even what they were back when the Bible was written.

    Some people know something about the gifts, but their knowledge is very limited.

    I found myself in the know NOTHING side...because it was never taught at our church!

    When I first embraced the truth about this it was in defense! I was debating that they no longer exist (this was how I was taught). But when they started showing me scriptures I had never seen...and I went to God and ask what is the truth about this....well, this is just the beginning of my journey into understanding of the manifestations of the Spirit.
     
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