1 Cor.15 The rapture?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by UUall, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. UUall

    UUall
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    I would like to look into this single scripture to see exactly what its talking about. I think its dangerous to take a line out of scripture and build a doctrine around it. What is the context? Are there any other scriptures in the Word that say the same thing? What do you think 1 Cor.15 is talking about, if not the rapture.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    1 Cor 15 -- the rapture.

    1Thess 4 -- the rapture

    Matt 24 -- the Rapture.

    2 Thess 2 -- the rapture

    Romans 8:18-23 - the rapture

    2Cor 5:1-8 -- the rapture

    Why is God so focused on the resurrection event that happens "At the coming of the Lord" where "we are gathered together to him the moment our bodies are changed "in the twinkling of an eye" for the living - and the "dead in Christ" are raised - given eternal bodies made in heaven by God.

    Because that is THE FOCUS of Christ in John 14:1-3 so it is also THE FOCUS of the church!!

    This is why John describes it in detail in Rev 19 and 20


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Brother Bob,

    Notice the similarity in words and phrases in John 14 and 1 Thes. 4?
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

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    God gave us a promise, it's written in His Word
    When the angel blows the trumpet the saints will leave the earth
    We shall meet our Savior as we rise up in the air
    He'll take us to His home above where His glory we shall share.

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye
    The graves will burst open and the dead in Christ will fly
    Then those that are alive in Him will be caught up in the sky
    We'll be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye.

    Jesus said, 'In this world, you'll suffer many things'
    But no matter what the trial, keep trusting in His name
    One day He's coming for us, what a joy that will be
    When He shall clothe our mortal lives with immortality!
    Ronald W Robey
    Copyright ©1994 Ronald W Robey

    [ January 02, 2006, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: standingfirminChrist ]
     
  5. wopik

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    Jesus is coming to stay on this Earth and rule it with a rod of iron, and us with Him (Rev 5:10).


    "and His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem.......in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem........and the LORD shall be king over all the EARTH..... (Zechariah 14:4-9).


    They said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olive Grove, which is near Jerusalem......" -- Acts 1:11-12.




    "....we shall REIGN on the Earth" (Rev 5:10).
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Yes - I agree they are rapture texts!
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Hey - I think Wopik and I actually differ on "something"!
     
  8. UUall

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    1COR.15 [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    So at what time will “death be swallowed up in victory” ? According to 1 cor.15 it will be at the time when “we shall ALL be changed”.

    ISAIAH 25 [4] For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.[5] Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.[6] And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.[7] And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.[8] He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[9] And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

    Isaiah 25 tells us when “death will be swallowed up in victory”. Its after a huge load of tribulation thats written about in Isaiah 24. It’s a short chapter and gets right to the point. And as you can plainly see Jesus has been a refuge from the storm and a shadow from the heat to HIS people during this tribulation. Then, He will swallow up death in victory.

    Verse 9 - And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

    Gods people according to verse 9 (the people that will be saved) will be waiting for HIM right here on earth. Thats what this scripture seems to be saying.
     
  9. hillclimber

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    1 Cor.15 The rapture? Yes
    Matt 24 definitly not He is speaking to Israel here
    The rest I think are yesses, but to tired to check out a couple I have doubts about.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Matt 24 speaks to "all tribes of the earth" and also speaks of the great tribulation that follows after the first century (the Dark Ages) -- it applies to all mankind.

    Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.


    Where was “the holy place” in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

    The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

    This non-SDA link shows a chronology of the Matt 24 events that DOES have the 1260 years of the dark ages matched with the expected tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.
    http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Matt/mt21-25/Mt24.htm

    The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

    The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".

    These Matt 24 events are recorded in the encyclopedia. First we note that the 1260 years of the dark ages ends in the 1700's. Then we notice the Lisbon earthquake, 1755, the dark day in the Northwestern US, 1780, and the "falling" of the stars, 1833 – all follow the end of that tribulation period.

    - Stars of heaven shall fall No shower from the meteor belt activated in 1833 has been as great as as that one. This observation was noted in the magazine, Sky and Telescope around 1997. (still true as of 2003).

    For a summary of signs of the end -- see
    http://www.present-truth.org/signs-heavens.htm

    For a list of historic quotes about the Dark Day and falling stars –
    http://www.temcat.com/Temcats-studies/exceptwe.htm

    Although Matt 24 and these notes above point out that the major centuries long tribulation ended with the events described above in history – still there is another tribulation period beyond this 1260 year great historic time of persecution. This shorter tribulation is also included in the Matt 24 concept of “tribulation preceding the 2nd coming”. It is seen in Rev 16 as the time of the 7 last plagues and in Rev 12-14 as the time of the Mark of the Beast.


    Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "GREAT power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -

    2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.

     
  11. BobRyan

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    Thanks to Ed for this format

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. hillclimber

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    Matt 24 is clearly refering to the second coming. Not the calling out of the church. (rapture)
    As Jesus was talking of these events, the rapture was still unheard of, and He was talking to Israel.
    Jesus never refered to the rapture, because it was not in any way a part of his mission. He was sent solely for the purpose of establishing His bona fides as "The Messiah", and starting the prophecied Kingdom. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
     
  13. hillclimber

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    Thanks to Ed for this format

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Bob, Eds outline is completely scrambled. It freely mixes second coming events with the rapture, which is an almost universal mistake.
     
  14. hillclimber

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    There is absolutely no reference to the rapture in the four gospels, or in the book of the Revelation. None. It is only in Pauls writings that we find this truth.
     
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    Ah, but as I pointed out earlier, there is a great similarity in the wording of John 14:1 - 3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 18.

    If the rapture is not in the book of John, then we would have to say Paul was not speaking of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians. Yet, I know that he indeed was speaking of the Rapture

    John 14 1 Thessalonians 4:
    Sorrow v.1 Sorrow v.13
    Believe v.1 Believe v.13
    God, Me v.1 Jesus, God v.14
    Told You v.2 Say To You v.15
    Come Again v.3 Coming Of The Lord v.15
    Receive You v.3 Caught Up v.17
    Unto Myself v.3 To Meet The Lord v.17
    Be Where I Am v.3 Ever Be With The Lord v.17

    John 14:3 I will come again and receive you unto myself.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    HC - I did not mean to imply that the content was Ed's just that I was using the same format. Ed rejects the sequence given in MAtt 24 just as you do.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    That is true - but then when He comes he will take us up to heaven - the place he has prepared for us.

    He takes us - gathers the saints just as He said he would do in John 14 AND in Matt 24.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    So he DOES speak of his "coming again" and His "return" but you deny that He speaks of the "FOCUS" of the entire NT church - "The Coming of the Lord" mentioned in both 1Thess 4 and 2Thess2???

    Does this mean you now reject His statements on that SAME point in Matt 24 AND in John 14?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. UUall

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    Bob
    What i was trying to point out was that according to scripture (Isaiah 25), before "death is swallowed up in victory", there is going to be huge tribulation. I just went back and read Isaiah 24. Its more than huge tribulation. Its the "Day of the Lord". Go read it yourself, theres no mistaken.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Made a better looking chart from those comparisons I posted earlier.

    [​IMG]
     

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