1 Corinthians 12-14

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Naomi, Jul 8, 2002.

  1. Naomi

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    Greetings to all who are interested in this topic.
    I wanted to begin this thread due to the many pages on other threads about these scriptures.

    My purpose with this is to go through the 12, 13 and 14th chapters of 1 Corinthians. On other threads, there seems to be scriptures discussed, but not in an orderly fashion. So, my purpose is to go through these verses and discuss them.

    I think we can all learn from each other. I just ask that we exhibit christian character while discussing this. [​IMG] Thanks for joining!

    12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Paul seems to be addressing the subject of spiritual gifts. It seems as if he is saying that people were operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and perhaps there were some who thought they were operating under "demonic influence"
    I surmise that because of how Paul stated that No man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    Paul seems to be saying that there are many gifts, yet it is the same Spirit. In the church service (corporate body) to some are given various gifts. Yet, may they not be puffed up because of the gifts, because it is the same Spirit. The same God which worketh all in all.

    To be continued...

    [ July 08, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Naomi ]
     
  2. Naomi

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    12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many. 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

    God has dispensed these gifts to the body of believer's. Because the Holy Spirit lives within each of us. Some gifts are given to edify the church, some are given for the purpose of prayer, some are given to be a sign to the unbeliever. Yet, they are all from the same Spirit. Sometimes people may be operating in a gift, and not even know it.
    Case in point: Have you ever met someone for the first time, and knew something about them, but you did not know how you knew it? (word of knowledge) yet if we are sensitive to the prompting of the Holy Spirit, we can operate in the word of wisdom, so we can know why we know that information. Perhaps to pray, perhaps to minister, perhaps for another reason.
    Now, concerning prayer and tongues, In the book of Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    We are encouraged to build up ourselves, by praying in the Holy Ghost. This is not to build up our "flesh" it is to build up our faith in
    the Spirit.
    12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    This verse implies that we are all on the same page. We are all baptized into one body. From the same Spirit. God is no respecter of persons.

    Which is why this would be stated:

    That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
    Schism-meaning-no separation in the church due to doctrine, or difference in opinion.

    To be continued...
     
  3. DHK

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    Why do you connect prayer with tongues? Prayer and speaking in tongues are completely different. Tongues was never given to individuals as a private prayer language, to be used in a selfish way. It was given to the church, to be used in the church, for the church's edification and understanding. That is why Paul demanded that they have an interpreter when they speak in tongues--that all may understand. Prayer has nothing to do with this.

    Neither is prayer a gift of the Spirit. It is not mentioned anywhere as a gift. It is something that every Christian is commanded to do. Jesus admonished His disciples many times for not praying enough. "Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name, Ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full" (John 16:24).

    It is in the above verse that we can find the difference between some of the gifts, and how God operates today. All the gifts have passed away. But God's command to pray has not, neither has His promise "that your joy may be full." We serve a great God that answers prayer. I don't believe the gift of tongues is for today, but God does answer pray in very unusual ways, that we do not always understand. "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things which thou knowest not" (Jer.33:3).
    DHK
     
  4. Naomi

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    1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

    Originally posted by DHK:
    Why do you connect prayer with tongues? Prayer and speaking in tongues are completely different. Tongues was never given to individuals as a private prayer language, to be used in a selfish way.

    Greetings DHK! Thanks for joining me. I wanted your interpretation of the above scripture. How would you define praying in the Holy Ghost? To use the gift of tongues in this sense, is in private, not in a corporate setting.

    It was given to the church, to be used in the church, for the church's edification and understanding. That is why Paul demanded that they have an interpreter when they speak in tongues--that all may understand. Prayer has nothing to do with this.

    I agree with you. In that case it would not have to do with prayer, but to edify the church.
    When we look at verse 28, we can see that it states "diversities of tongues" in other words, various tongues. Paul makes a distinction between when we are praying to God, and when we are in a church service.

    12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


    Neither is prayer a gift of the Spirit. It is not mentioned anywhere as a gift. It is something that every Christian is commanded to do. Jesus admonished His disciples many times for not praying enough. "Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name, Ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full" (John 16:24).

    We are in agreement here as well. I am not refering to prayer as a gift, but using the gift of tongues in our prayers.

    It is in the above verse that we can find the difference between some of the gifts, and how God operates today. All the gifts have passed away. But God's command to pray has not, neither has His promise "that your joy may be full." We serve a great God that answers prayer. I don't believe the gift of tongues is for today, but God does answer pray in very unusual ways, that we do not always understand. "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things which thou knowest not" (Jer.33:3).
    DHK
     
  5. Naomi

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    12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    The last verse here, Paul seems to be telling us to covet the best gifts, and he is going to show us a more excellent way.....may we go to Chapter 13 to see what is a more excellent way?

    Chapter 13
    13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    We may do all these good things, but without love (charity) we are nothing. Love is the more excellent way.
    Then he goes on to explain the meaning of love (charity)

    13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    Continued...
     
  6. Naomi

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    13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Now we know that love never fails. When we get to heaven, we will no longer be in need of spiritual gifts. The perfect will come. The gifts will no longer be needed, but love will be forever.
    We prophesy in part, we know in part. We see through a glass dimly. Soon we will be face to face.

    When will we be face to face?

    3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    When we consider what the Prophet Joel said:

    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come

    When the perfect is come, then shall the gifts cease. Yet, love will continue.

    God Bless
    Naomi

    To be continued..
     
  7. DHK

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    "Diversities of tongues. Those endowed with the power of speaking various languages." (Albert Barnes)

    When 1Cor.12:28 mentions "diversities of tongues," it is simply speaking of "kinds of languages." There are many different languages in this world. Some had the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages--real languages. There is no differentiation in this verse between an earthly and heavenly language, or speaking in tongues ecstatically and speaking in tongues rationally. There is no such thing as a gift of tongues which is a prayer language, or has anything to do with prayer. It was giving a message or speaking forth in another language. And you needed to have an interpreter, so all could understand.
     
  8. GrannyGumbo

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    13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Naomi~"If you truly believe that "that which" refers to Christ (altho' I, myself, never call Him a "that which"), then what would be the need of "faith & hope"? "That which is perfect" is the completed Word of God. The written Word is now complete and people who claim to speak in tongues or have the other Apostle-gifts, are saying that God is still revealing through them. You are denying the complete and final authority of the written Word of God.

    Also, this 'private prayer' stuff-God don't need that, does He? What possible benefit does it give you? Just curious...
     
  9. Briguy

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    "12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

    Actually, this verse out of the Greek can also be translated to say "But you are earnestly coveting the best gifts but I will show you a better way. "best" in this sense would be the showy gifts that brought attention to the person. Which if you think about it Paul is rebuking them for people using tongues, in particular, the wrong way. Many people were standing up in those early services and were speaking in gibberish and some were speaking in real languages (with the real gift) and Paul was saying it doesn't matter because speaking gifts are NOT more important then any other gift. That is why in 1 Cor 12 he shows the "church" as a working human "body" which needs all its parts to operate properly.

    Also N, you stated that some gifts are to edify the body and some are not. Re-read 1 Cor. 12:7 which says that All gifts are to edify the "body" (of believers that is)
    I may add more later.

    In a great God,
    Brian

    [ July 09, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
     
  10. Briguy

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    Granny, I agree with you on everything except that I just don't see Biblically how you can prove that the "perfect" is the Bible. I think a more logical interprtation is that if Adam and Eve lost "perfection" that the that which is perfect would be the restoration of what Adam and Eve lost and that is obviously when the curse is lifted and we begin the 1000 year reign on earth. That to me just makes better sense and seems to fit the whole of scripture better. Thanks again for all your great posts [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  11. Don

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    Basically, "that which is perfect" has been relegated to several theories:

    1) The Bible
    2) The Kingdom on earth
    3) Jesus (specifically, His death and resurrection)

    I'm sure there are more, but those seem to be the main three I've come across.
     
  12. Revolt

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    I think the perfect is the Baptist Board [​IMG]
     
  13. GrannyGumbo

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    Thanks, Bro.Brian. As I've posted elsewhere & it was not commented on that I remember-is "the perfect law of liberty" found in James 1:25(KJV), NOT talking about the Bible? I had written those notes down a long time ago & need to correct it, if it's not. And "that which" does not sound like a person to me, so I don't think of Christ from "that which". On the other hand, "we know in part" seems like partial-knowledge, like something incomplete, but when the perfect Word of God got completed, our knowledge became complete. "Ho-hum~I know I have a way of being just plain-jane cornpone & all that, so I do appreciate everything I read on here from many of you. The thing I have about this private-prayer/tongues is that God can understand all of us without sending up "secret" messages...so what's their purpose?
     
  14. Me2

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    I Believe The Day Of The Lord Joel Was Speaking Of Was The Day Of The Cross.
    Day Of Pentecost and Propogation Of Holy Spirit...Sons and Daughters "Prophecying"

    Perfection could mean one of two thing that I Believe To Be
    1) wisdom plus understanding equals knowledge.. Knowledge of knowing the truth
    or..
    2) Final Plan of Reconciliation..The Sons of God Are The Ambassadors of Christ Which Are The Overcomers in Revelation Overcoming The World,Flesh , Devil...
    and Finally overcoming Death..Reaching A State Of Perfection Meeting Christ Face To Face
    (1 cor 15:20-28)
     
  15. DHK

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    Context is very important when considering what "that which is perfect" means. The word "that" is in the neuter gender which discounts Christ or his coming, both of which would be referred to with a masculine pronoun. The context is referring to revelatory gifts and nothing else. It is referring to the revelation of God. The church received revelation from God at that time from speaking in tongues and the interpretation thereof, through prophecies, through revelatory knowledge. There would come a time when the means of these revelations would cease, and God would give us a completed revelation, a revelation that we would reveal Himself to all mankind. That is the word of God.

    Furthermore, in the context of the verse the pronoun "that" has to make sense in both places.
    The verse says:
    "When "that" which is perfect is come, then "that" which is in part shall be done away."
    The suggestions that you gave that this word "that" could refer to were:
    1) The Bible
    2) The Kingdom on earth
    3) Jesus (specifically, His death and resurrection)
    4) Heaven
    5) The End

    Those are probably all the likely possibilities that I have heard.

    Now begin to substitute:
    When "the kingdom of earth (that) is come, then the kingdom of earth (that) which is in part shall be done away. (Doesn't make much sense does it. Try again.
    When Jesus (that) which is perfect is come, then (Jesus) which is in part shall be done away (What does that mean?)
    You can continue that way and come to some pretty absurd conclusions.

    Now substitute "revelation," which is the context of the entire passage.
    When revelation (Bible) is perfect is come, then revelation (gifts) which is in part shall be done away.
    Now, that makes sense, and it is the only one that makes sense.
    DHK

    [ July 09, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  16. trying2understand

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    Right, and all you have to do is give the same word two different meanings within the same sentence. Another example of arranging words to fit your preconceived beliefs?

    Of course you can now defend it with some further word play like... the Bible is a gift. ;)
     
  17. Briguy

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    Hi DHK, As usual, great post with lots of insight. I really do respect your wisdom and the time you spend studying the word of God. The verse in question says:

    "13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Maybe I am all wet here but it doesn't say that the perfect is that which is in part. For example if Six Flags advertizes the "perfect" roller coaster coming soon and then take down an old beat up ride to put up the new "perfect" coaster the two rides really had nothing to do with eachother. If they had started the new ride and then added to it to make the "perfect" coaster then that would be different. In this case I think we are talking about a perverted, distorted period of time being replaced by a new "perfect" never ending period of time. This is what happened when Adam and Eve sinned, a perfect world was replaced by a sin filled one. Hope that was clear as I knew what I wanted to say but struggled getting it out of my brain [​IMG]

    I do see how you come to your conclusion DHK and it makes some sense I just can't fit the concept into the whole of scripture so I look at it in the way that makes sense considering what happened with Adam and Eve.

    Hi Granny (I love to write that :D ) You are right, why would God want us to speak to him and have no clue what we are saying? I have no clue why some folks would think the God who can read our thoughts would need for us to speak to him in a "private" language, so private that even the speaker doesn't understand ;) Strange indeed.

    In Christ,
    Brian

    [ July 09, 2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]
     
  18. Briguy

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    Hi Ron, Hope you are well!!

    Ron, how about some "meat" from you on the subject instead of the "hash" you just slung ;) :D

    --Brian
     
  19. DHK

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    Right, and all you have to do is give the same word two different meanings within the same sentence. Another example of arranging words to fit your preconceived beliefs?

    Of course you can now defend it with some further word play like... the Bible is a gift. ;)
    </font>[/QUOTE]If it makes it any clearer to you I'll word it this way:
    When that which is perfect is come (i.e., revelation--the completed or perfected Word of God), then that which is in part shall be done away (i.e., revelation--the temporary gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1Cor.13:8--tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge).
    DHK
     
  20. Naomi

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    Greetings everyone!
    Thanks for joining [​IMG]
    Wow! everyone has added alot of great insight here. I appreciate what everyone has to add.

    DHK stated:
    Diversities of tongues. Those endowed with the power of speaking various languages." (Albert Barnes)

    When 1Cor.12:28 mentions "diversities of tongues," it is simply speaking of
    "kinds of languages." There are many different languages in this world. Some had the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages--real languages.

    DHK, I am trying to stick to scripture references as mush as possible. Could you define in the book of Corinthians that it was a specific language. Thanks!

    14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    If no man understands it, how can it be a earthly language?

    There is no differentiation in this verse between an earthly and heavenly language, or speaking in tongues ecstatically and speaking in tongues rationally. There is no such thing as a gift of tongues which is a prayer language, or has anything to do with prayer. It was giving a message or speaking forth in another language. And you needed to have an interpreter, so all could understand.

    Yes, when the church comes together. It is still refering to a heavenly language. The person interpreting the tongue would be operating in the gift of interpretation.

    Thanks DHK for studying with me.
     

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