1 Corinthians 14:29

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Van, Jan 13, 2016.

  1. Van

    Van
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    In another thread, dealing with mistranslations contained in the NIV, Martin posted the following:
    Martin's well made point is that the NIV translators concluded that the "others" referred to the audience. However, it is also possible that the "others" refers to the "prophets." Thus rather than the audience evaluate, Paul's point contextually is that the other prophets were to evaluate.

    Next, again according to Martin, the idea is that the prophets were to evaluate the other prophets and decide which of them would speak, as opposed to evaluating the message spoken. So we have two alternate meanings, possibly the ones intended by God, which have been eliminated by adding to the text.

    As far as the NIV "carefully" is not in the text and is unnecessary, and "what is said" is not in the text and may reflect a misunderstanding of the meaning. Clearly the winner here is the LEB which reads, "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate."
     
  2. Rippon

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    MM's point was pointless. Did you note He said;"In the context, they are judging which two or three of them should speak." How he derived that is anyone's guess. It certainly can't be gleaned from the text of the NIV :
    Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.
    Yep.
    The operative words being "according to Martin," not the NIV text.
    Listen, if one is evaluating something, there is carefulness implied while weighing what is said.
    I judge that you have no clue about the meaning. Most translations have what is said at the end of the verse. That's because the two or three prophets are evaluating --listen closely --what is said.
    In your totally unqualified opinion.

    For review:
    ESV : let the others weigh what is said
    TCNT : the rest should weigh well what is said
    ISV,NRSV,Mounce : others should weigh carefully what is said
    Goodspeed : while the rest weigh what is said
    CEB : have the rest evaluate what is said
    NET : the others should evaluate what is said
    HCSB : the others should evaluate

    From The Pulpit Commentary : 'Let the others judge : rather, let the rest discriminate the value of what is said."
    _______________________________________________________________________________
    Your past attempts and your current one are pretty paltry when trying to slam the NIV. You are coming up way short.
     
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  3. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    I've not been paying much attention to the aforementioned thread, but will toss in here and perhaps it will help. Here's the Greek of the verse:

    προφῆται δὲ δύο ἢ τρεῖς λαλείτωσαν καὶ οἰ ἂλλοι διακρινέτωσαν

    The Greek is pretty straightforward here and there are no variants of note.

    Others here are persons other than the prophets. They are the ones speaking. The others could be the congregation, but, taking the note from the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (6:851) it seems this is probably referring to other prophets in the local congregation. Another plausible interpretation is members, or leaders, of the local congregation. Given the context, here Paul is speaking about the nature of sign gifts, it is likely he means other prophets within the context of the congregation.

    This is a stretch. There is some ambiguity in the text here, particularly around the identity of the "others." The evaluation here isn't the prophets, it is what they are saying. This has been entire focus of the Pauline discourse of this section to this point. What is said, not who is saying it.

    "Carefully" is implicated in the rendering of the word διακρινέτωσαν.

    To say the LEB is "clearly the winner" is erroneous. The LEB completely misses the imperatival force of the first verb, λαλείτωσαν, and limits the force and focus of the final verb, διακρινέτωσαν. This doesn't mean its a bad translation, rather it simply points out that it is over-kill to say the LEB "clearly is the winner."

    If we diagram this sentence and look to see what is implicated and how, it seems "what is said" is implicated by Paul though not directly stated. It is a reasonable extension of the final verb. There is judging, or assessment going on. It is not of the character of the prophetic chorus of 2-3. That has already been decided by the assembly They are not being evaluated for their competency either. Instead, it is what they are saying that should come under the scrutiny of those listening.

    The NIV produces a fine read of the text.
     
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  4. Van

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    Commentaries are split with some "experts" saying "others" does not refer to "prophets" with other commentaries saying "others" does refer to other "prophets." For example both Martin Luther and John Calvin agree "others" refers to other prophets.

    As for the "implied" need for "carefully" many other translation teams did not "see" that implication. :)
     
  5. Rippon

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    ISV,NRSV,Mounce and AMP : "weigh carefully"
    TCNT : "weigh well"
     
  6. Van

    Van
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    Five wrongs do not make a right. Added words should be italicized to let the reader know they are not inspired.
     
  7. Van

    Van
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    The elephant in the room is the claim these NIV mistranslations are somehow needed for functional equivalence, but that is obviously not true. The NIV uses omitted words, added words, and different word meanings to alter the message which of course results in functional non-equivalence.

    Mistranslation in the NIV
    1) Isaiah 12:3 the omission of the conjunction should read, "therefore" *
    2) Mark 1:41 Jesus was indignant should read, "moved with anger." *
    3) John 1:16 does not seem any more flawed than many other translations, what the text actually says is "And out of His abundance we all also obtained grace against grace." *
    4) John 21:5 friends should read, "children."
    5) Acts 13:50 "leaders" should be italicized to indicate an addition to the text.
    6) Romans 3:25 sacrifice of atonement should read, "propitiatory shelter."*
    7) 1 Corinthians 16:13 "be courageous" should read, "act like men."
    8) Ephesians 2:3 deserving of wrath should read, "children of wrath."
    9) Colossians 1:28 the omission of "every man" (or every person) reduces the force of the teaching that the gospel is understandable to every person.*
    10) 2 Thess. 2:13 to be saved should read, "for salvation."
    11) 2 Thess. 3:6 who is idle should read, "who leads an undisciplined life" *
    12) 1 Timothy 3:16 appeared in the flesh should read, "revealed in the flesh."*
    13) Titus 3:4 love should read, "love for mankind." *
    14) Hebrews 10:14 sacrifice should read, "offering."
    15) James 2:5 to be rich in faith should read, "yet rich in faith."
    16) 1 Peter 4:6 those who are now dead should read, "those who are dead."
    17) 1 John 2:2 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation." *
    18) 1 John 4:10 atoning sacrifice should read, "propitiation."
    19) Rev. 13:8 from the creation should read, "from the foundation."
    20) Rev. 22:21 be with God's people should read, "be with all."
    21) 1 Samuel 15:19 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
    22) 1 Samuel 15:20 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
    23) 1 Samuel 15:22 the Lord should read "the voice of the Lord." *
    24) Philemon 1:6 the verse should read as follows: "I pray that your participation in the faith may be effective in deepening your understanding of every blessing that belongs to you in Christ."
    25) 1 Corinthians 14:29 should read "Let two or three prophets speak, and the others evaluate." The NIV added "carefully" and "what is said."


    Examples 1, 9, 13, 21, 22, and 23 document omission of words or parts of words.
    Examples 5, 15, 16 and 25 document addition of words.
    Examples 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 17, 18, 19 and 20 document replacement of the inspired word with a different word or different words.
    Example 24 documents a translation devoid of meaning, just an array of disconnected phrases.
     
  8. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    I disagree with both of these statements. The lexical definition of the word and its inflection in the verse provide us the basis for using "carefully" as part of the translation of the word. Because Greek is an inflected language, as opposed to English which is non-inflected, sometimes several words in English need to be used to translate the totality of the meaning of a word in the NT. This is one of those cases.

    Besides, I think this whole conversation is a mountain out of a molehill.
     
  9. Van

    Van
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    When translators add unnecessary words the additions should be in italics so the reader knows the addition is not inspired. Five wrongs do not make a right. You can disagree all you want. The vast majority of translation teams did not add "carefully" so it was not mandated by Greek inflection.

    When people "evaluate" they try to do it properly, rather than sloppily. So the implication is carried forward without the additional word.
     
  10. preachinjesus

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    Maybe I'm just asking something I already know the answer to, but...

    You do realize that you simply cannot translate one word for one word right?
     
  11. Van

    Van
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    Hi Preachinjesus, I know you must think if I disagree with you, I must be ignorant. But here we are dealing with "experts" with some saying others must refer to prophets and other experts saying others does not refer to prophets. In other words, the underlying Greek is sufficiently ambiguous that two alternate understandings have been put forth as required by the grammar.

    Carefully may be implied by the Greek, but the English "evaluate" implies careful evaluation. To add the word is "unnecessary." You do realize that some of the translator additions are unnecessary and speculative?
     

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