+1 for Calvinism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jeep Dragon, Sep 6, 2006.

  1. Jeep Dragon

    Jeep Dragon
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    This is a hard passage to swallow. It some ways it seems that certain of these people had their hearts hardened so that they could not believe as a result of the fulfilled profecy of Isaiah the profit.

    I have always been taught that all people have a free will and that God wants all people to be saved. Has God actually created living breathing people to burn?

    I have seen other places in the Bible where God hardened hearts:

    I understand that God is sovereign and that He can do whatever He wants, but the question is whether these all apply to salvation and/or whether these are lifetime occurrences.

    I would like input from all views on these passages concerning Isaiah's prophecy, God hardening Pharaoh's heart, and in general, God's purpose for using people in an unbelieving state for His Glory. At this point, I am open to all opinions.
     
  2. Allan

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    If you would continue to Read 44-50 it gives you the reason their hearts were hardened to receive CHRIST, because they had first rejected God. Jesus said I have not spoken of myself but my Father, who gave Jesus commandment of what to say and speak. This was part of their judgement for unbelief that when the true messiah comes they would not recieve him (even though scriptures clearly point Him out) because they will have Rejected the Father and therefore the Son as well.

    As for hardening the heart of Pharoh - this is not dealing with salvation but him letting Gods people Go!

    Note: He would have let them go but God willing to glorify His name through a means unknown specifically to us (maybe those of his friends, other princes) Hardened Pharoh that he would so no instead of go. Yes God was the initiator of the hardening but that does not nessesitate Pharoh was controled by God to be hardened.
     
    #2 Allan, Sep 7, 2006
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  3. Allan

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    Deleted<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
     
    #3 Allan, Sep 7, 2006
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  4. Allan

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    Deleted<<<<<<< I figured it was way too much to post
     
    #4 Allan, Sep 7, 2006
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  5. skypair

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    Jeep,

    I would say regarding the first part that the 'blindness' was of the suffering Savior. 1Cor 2:8 tells us that if they had "seen" it, they would not have crucified "the Lord of glory."

    So indeed, even the disciples, whom Jesus told over and over again, couldn't fully grasp what Jesus needed to do.

    Course the problem is that for all who continue in this blindness, there is no salvation. And they are still blinded by the expectation of King Messiah in OT scripture and NOT of Lamb Christ in NT scripture.

    As to hardening -- over and over Pharoah rejected the word of God through Moses. Pharoah hardened his own heart though God takes credit having given Pharoah many opportunities to do the right thing.

    skypair
     
  6. reformedbeliever

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    Greetings Jeep. What I suggest you do is read God's revealed Word with a God centered context. Too many today want to make His revealed truth man centered. It is not about us, but about HIm. God will not share His glory with any man. Read His whole revealed Word and see that God is the initiator of any covenant with man. Also, as far as free will is concerned, do you think we make choices without any thought or consideration for outside influences? I believe that all the choices we make ( including our choice to believe ) is determined by factors that God puts in place. This is His providence. This is called determinism. I believe that Pharoah's heart was hardened by God. I believe that the non elect's hearts are hardened by God. I am not saying that there are any out there who truly want to believe, but can't. I believe the whosoever..... its just that I read in context.... for example John 3:16; what is the context? The context is being born again. God sent His Son to save the world, but the world loved darkness instead of light for their deeds are evil. What does this point us to? It points us right back to the beginning of the chapter.... contextually..... where we must be born again. How are we born again? Read John 1 "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God". The simple reading of scripture in context with a God centered theology.... will always give a reformed perspective. A man centered theology will give just that.... man centeredness.
    Grace and peace
     
  7. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Scripture

    Scripture does not point to a reformed point of view, but it points to Jesus.

    It is the will of God to save those who believe in Jesus, so we are saved by the will of God, not the will of men.

    All scripture points to Jesus, until men stop pointing to thier man centered theology, and point to God centered Jesus we will never break through the darkness of this world.

    It is not the church that saved, but God through His Son who saved.

    I pray ever day that men will not center on man made theology, but Jesus the worlds only hope that God gave to men.

    God has set before us life and death so chose life so you may live, and through this the whole earth will be blessed.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Sep 8, 2006
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  8. reformedbeliever

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    You need to re-read my post. I never said scripture pointed to a reformed point of view. I know what scripture points to. It is in Him I live. When one says they are reformed or calvinist, that simply points to what theological stance they are of. I'm a Christian first. I am reformed and I know you are afraid of that because you do not truly know what we believe. If you truly knew what reformed or calvinist theologians believe, then you would know that we follow no man. This is a strawman that those who are uninformed manufacture. Again, re-read what I posted. Would you disagree with reading in context? Grace and peace
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Lifting up Jesus

    We are to lift up Jesus, not our theology.

    I'm a simple man, who knows where my hope lies, and this hope was given to all men and we are the messenger.

    God loves the world that He sent His Son, some have limited by misunderstanding God's word.

    You can say what you want to, that I take you out of context or what ever, but my job is to lift up Jesus to the world, not some made made doctrine.

    We are saved not by mens decision, but by God's decision to save believers.

    We do not have to be born again to believe, but to enter heaven.

    We are to have a child like faith, and the Kingdom was made for such as these.

    We are to go unto maturity, but not by rejecting the milk that gave us life.

    We are saved by grace , because Jesus paid our debt for our sins.

    Any gift free or not you have to accept it in order to receive it. Accepting didn't pay your debt though, Jesus did.

    Jesus is your hope and your faith.

    Being chosen is just the first step, God first love you. God made the first step, our step is next, just to believe in the one He sent.

    We have a message of God news for the world.

    I read the bible before being enfluenced by man made doctrine, over and over again, and it was Jesus that opened my eyes, not some man made doctrine.
     
  10. reformedbeliever

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    The problem is that you believe that you have to believe in order to be born again. That is not what the Bible says.

    Hey believe it or not... I read the Bible too. I read it and then found out that some people believe the way I do..... Calvin included. I've never read Calvin's institutes or any of his writings. I do believe he was much more of a theologian than you will ever be. But again, that is my belief. You are entitled to yours. Grace and peace
     
  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Scripture

    scripture does not teach that we have to be born again to believe that is an influence of man-made doctrine.

    It teaches we have to be born again to enter heaven.

    All we are missing is the words of Jesus which is the Spirit and life.

    The words of Jesus does not incline our heart to believe, it gives us a clear choice, to believe in Jesus and be saved, or not and be condemned.

    With the words of Jesus we have no excuse that we are depraved, because the Spirit is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart.

    So believe in Jesus and be saved and do not and be condemned.

    We have an awesome message of hope, for the world and God made us the messengers of the Spirit and the life in the words of Jesus.

    "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
     
  12. Jeep Dragon

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    When studying the whole Bible in its context, if we read words as they are with an open mind, it is obvious that the Bible contains more than one point of view.

    The Bible was written by several people, some speaking their own words, some speaking God's words, and some portraying their own personalities and opinions into the Bible. All Scripture is God's Word and is inspired by God, yet has many men's points of view expressed in it.

    One may realize that the Calvinistic view of Divine Grace and the free-will view of man believing that he made a wise choice in chosing God may have both existed in different people who had a part in writing the Bible.

    If read in its simple context without a pre-determined filter, one would obviously conclude that these people had a free will and they chose God.

    If read in the simple context, David definitely had a choice of his own punnishment. Yet, whatever he chose would be sovereignly controlled by God (including pursuing David with his enemies).

    Amazing, a small passage that can show both Calvinism and free-will theology... Man, this is good!

    This is incredible. Look as Nehemiah's point of view. Is Nehemiah a Calvinist or a free-will theologian? I can't tell.

    If read in simple context, the psalmist's point of view in this Psalm is very Calvinistic.

    In the simple context, God acknowledges that these people have a choice, yet because He knew that they wouldn't choose Him, He laughs at their calamities.

    Jesus chose His disciples (of course one could interpret the context as choosing them as disciples instead of choosing them for salvation), yet He gives them commands.

    I can go on and on with different viewpoints expressed throughout the Bible. The point is that maybe when the Bible obviously says that God made people do something, He did, and when it says that people chose God, they did. Maybe during Bible times God sovereignly intervined at some times to put things in the Bible for His glory, and some times allowed man to make his own choices (with His foreknowledge of it of course and the ability to work around such) because He doesn't have to directly control people in those situations to get His will to occur.

    I don't know, but maybe the ideas of Calvinism and free-will theology are both true. How that works... one may never understand.
     
  13. reformedbeliever

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    The Bible certainly teaches that men are responsible for their choices. The Bible certainly does not teach that men make choices in a vaccuum. The Bible teaches that God is in control of all things... as sovereign of His creation. The Bible also teaches God's omniscience. If you take omniscience to its inevitable end... there are no variables in the choices we make. There are no accidents or chance. All that God knows to be will be. All that God knows to be will happen and occur just as He knows it, or He truly does not know it. Do you see this Jeep? Grace and peace
     
  14. psalms109:31

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    The disciple's

    The disciple's that was chosen by God through Jesus is a representation of the 12 tribes of Isreal. One tribe cut out for unbelief, one chosen by lot who represents the gentiles. Then we have the apostle Paul, who was included back in, because he did not continue in his unbelief.

    I have no problem with the elect of God, but even the elect of God's hope is Jesus. If they do not continue in thier belief they will be cut. We are not to be arragont, but afraid, if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

    All men would not be drawn to Jesus, because the Holy Spirit has not yet filled the earth.

    It is not until after Jesus is lifted up that God will draw all men to Himself.

    With the choice to believe in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned, and God made us the mesengers.

    This world is no longer depraved of the Holy Spirit, after Jesus was lifted up and set on the right hand of God that He sent the Holy Spirit upon the earth again.

    We are messngers of the Spirit and life to bring to all men.

    I do not disagree with the sovreignty work of God, and all He did to bring the message of hope to the whole world.

    God has created a highly mobile temple of the Holy Spirit, there is no place that it cannot go.

    I will not go against what God has convinced me in my youth.

    That He wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowlege of the truth, that Jesus was not sent here to condemn the world , but to save it, and made us who believe the messenger of it.

    Don't worry if your not the elect of God, or don't make being depraved as an excuse. For the Spirit of God is right at your door asking you to open the door and let Him in, or you are not good enough, or let me bury my father first, or let me take of some business first, for you are not promised another minute to decide, you just come to Jesus and He will no wise cast you out.
     
    #14 psalms109:31, Sep 9, 2006
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  15. jne1611

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    Question

    Are you saying that "cut Off" means losing salvation after one possess it? Or never getting salvation? Thanks!
     
  16. jne1611

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    Verses on God's Sovereignty

    The evidence is overwhelming in the Scripture concerning the Sovereignty of God. If a man really wants to see it, God will reveal it. Always remember, never approach the Scripture with preconceived ideas. They will cloud your judgment.
    Dan 4:35
    And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
    Job 9:12 Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?
    Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
    Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
    Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
    Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
    Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

     
    #16 jne1611, Sep 9, 2006
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  17. Billsey

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    JD,

    I know of no way for a finite human to wrap their minds around the infinite, but keep trying to know Him the better, for by this shall you be blessed.
     
  18. Billsey

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    The Bible's point of view on this can be found in John's epistles. To paraphrase, “If they leave us, it is a clear sign that they were never really part of us to begin with.” But, we have to be careful with that. Just because someone leaves your little group does not mean that they are not Christian. The problem might lie within your little group—and not within them at all.
     
  19. jne1611

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    There is no way you can say that the hardening of Pharaoh's heart did not affect his salvation, because he ended up in hell & God told him that was the way he would show His power to all the earth. The whole context of Rom. 9 is dealing with salvation & damnation.
    Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
    Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
    Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
    Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    As can be clearly seen, the context is showing the grafting in of the gentiles into Christ's body by God's own hand, not their choice of God, but His choice of them (Verse 25, 26) Verses 31 & 32 show the connection with verse 16. And chapter 11 verses 6 & 7 back this up fully:
    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    Also as can be seen clearly, the body of Christ is made up of both Jesw & Gentiles. (Verse 24:
    Rom 9:24
    Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)
    So the words mercy & Hardeneth do involve salvation & damnation!

    Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    So you see that God has not failed if people are lost, but has executed Justice & God is given all credit for any being saved! As verse 29 shows "Left to ourselves, we would be like those destroyed by the Lord God!" The text is to plain. Salvation is ALL of God!

     
    #19 jne1611, Sep 9, 2006
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  20. Billsey

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    I used to be a member of another Christian web forum. My experience with those who hammer and blast people with Scripture quotes (bold and multi-color, no less, and now even with a font sized apparently for the “blind”) instead of simply engaging in conversation while including the Bible reference so that readers, as good Bereans, can look up those references for themselves usually turn out to be graceless and holding to bad theology. It is also my experience that if the reader is genuinely interested in what you have to say, they'll look up the reference—no need to hammer them with it; and if they are not genuinely interested the hammering will only drive them away, and while you might have won the battle (and perhaps put a notch in your “spiritual” belt) you will have lost a soul. In the 17th of Luke we are shown to be responsible for the sin that we drive others to. If you drive them into the arms of Satan are you not responsible for their death? Do you really want their blood on your hands? For it is written, “No murderer shall enter Heaven.”
     

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